Showing posts with label Material Processes. Show all posts
Showing posts with label Material Processes. Show all posts

Monday, 5 February 2024

David Banks On Effected/Affected

 After Annabelle Lukin wrote asflanet on 5 Feb 2024 at 11:56:

I'm keen to hear thoughts on the analysis of this clause:
The earth formed some 4,600 years ago from a vast cloud of gas and dust.

If "formed" is a creative process, and "the earth" is what is created, it can't exist before the process takes place. So it can't be the actor of that process. My memory tells me that somewhere (but I haven't got a refrerence to hand) Halliday talks about an "effected" - the participant created by a process (as opposed to an "affected" - the participant altered by a process). To avoid any confusion, with my (non-anglophone) students I used to use the term "result". I would suggest that "the earth" is effected/result.


Blogger Comments:

[1] See the clause analysis here.

[2] To be clear, in terms of ergativity, The Earth is the Medium of the Process formed, which, in an intransitive clause is the Actor.

[3] To be clear, the affectum/effectum distinction applies to transitive clauses, not intransitive clauses. Halliday & Matthiessen (1999: 148):

The subtypes that have been generally recognised in grammar are (1) intransitive/transitive; (2) within intransitive, action/event; and (3) within transitive, effectum/affectum. … The third is the distinction between a Goal that 'exists' prior to the doing of the deed (affectum: Mary threw the ball) and one that is brought into existence by the doing (effectum: Jack built a house). We shall use this distinction, referred to as dispositive/creative, to explain figures of doing in terms of their outcome in other figures.

[4] To be clear, this only creates confusion, since "effected" applies only to transitive clauses, and 'result' is a type of Cause circumstance, not a participant.

On the other hand, Halliday & Matthiessen (1999: 149) classify subtypes of figures of doing according to outcome:

Friday, 1 December 2023

Ed McDonald On Musical Meanings As Concrete And General

Edward McDonald wrote to: sys-func on 20 Nov 2023, at 09:59:

… This reflects my understanding of the nature of musical meaning as concrete but general. Musical meanings are concrete, again in my opinion but informed by a wide range of research across a number of disciplines, because they express our human embodiment: music represents a kind of semiotic transformation of our experience of our own and other people’s bodies moving through space and time. 
At the same time, musical meanings are general, because, to borrow the insight of one philosopher of music, music is like body language: when we observe someone’s body language, including their gait, posture, facial expression, and gaze, we can “read off” its meaning, but only in general terms. We can tell that someone is sad, but not why; we can pick up that someone is highly agitated, but we don’t know the circumstances that gave rise to that agitation – unless we use language to ask them about it. 
So language, in contrast to music, is more abstract, more detached from our embodied experience, but at the same time because it supplies us with a system of categories we can apply to that experience, linguistic meanings are more specific. 
So from this point of view, we can see that soundtrack / expression music – “songs with words” – and score / mood music – “songs without words” – take on, as you might expect, the general semiotic characteristics of the systems of language and music with which they are mostly closely identified in each case.

Blogger Comments:

[1] To be clear, this reason for musical meanings being 'concrete' is based on a misunderstanding, since it has the (Token–Value) relation backwards. It is the movement of bodies — in playing instruments — that expresses music, not the other way around. That is, McDonald claims that musical meanings are concrete because he misconstrues them as the more concrete Token instead of the more abstract Value.

[2] To be clear, this is another instance of the logical fallacy known as Appeal to accomplishment – an assertion is deemed true or false based on the accomplishments of the proposer.

[3] To be clear, one way to understand the difference between music and body language is through the theory of experience that has naturally evolved in English. Music is the Scope of the material Process of playing, whereas body language is a behavioural Process that 'manifests states of consciousness' (Halliday & Matthiessen 2014: 302).

[4] To be clear, this reason for musical meanings being 'general' is based on a misunderstanding, since it confuses elaboration (generality) with enhancement (cause: reason).

[5] To be clear, this is another instance of the logical fallacy known as ipse dixit, a bare assertion, since no supporting argument has been made, and the claim that the meanings of music are concrete is based on a misunderstanding; see [1].

[6] To be clear, this point has not been demonstrated; see [1] to [5] above.

Wednesday, 29 March 2023

David Rose Abducing That ChatGPT Learnt The Language System By Experiencing Instances Of Its Features

My own contributions have been merely observations, using the tools of systemic functional semiotic text analysis.

I observe that the texts produced by the machine instantiate semiotic systems. To be able to do this, we are told the machine reads 1000s of texts, i.e. other instances of these systems. It is reasonable to abduce that the machine has learnt these systems by experiencing multiple instances of their features (not just the fields it gleans from Wikipedia), given our language based theory of learning.

The people programming the machine, with ‘reasoners’ as Mick puts it, have no more conscious knowledge of these systems and the processes of realisation and re-instantiation, than the machine does.

The machine itself tells us that its understanding of its “self” is ‘based purely on symbols and algorithms’. This resonates with your insistence that all it is doing ‘is producing nonrandom sequences of characters’. My analogy of a closed book was intended to evoke the contrast between the material recording of characters and the semiotic reading of those characters as instantiating expression systems, that realise content systems, that realise register and genre systems. …

My point is that all the semiotic systems instantiated in the texts it produces are ‘not learned in any direct way’. Neither the machine nor the “tech gurus” that program it can explain this to our satisfaction. The publications that you cite are undoubtedly illuminating, but our contribution can only be based on text analysis, which I submit will produce very different (possibly complementary) explanations.


Blogger Comments:

[1] To be clear, this is not a reasonable abduction, because it is nowhere near the "best available" conclusion to infer.

ChatGPT uses the lexical collocation frequencies in its database. While it is true that these frequencies instantiate the probabilities in the language systems of the people who wrote the texts, there is no evidence to support the claim that ChatGPT is using systems of features in producing its own texts. It just uses lexical collocation frequencies.

"Our language-based theory of learning" does not apply here, because the learning and "experiencing" of ChatGPT are material processes, not the mental processes of a language learner.

[2] To be clear, the argument here is that, since neither humans nor ChatGPT have conscious knowledge of the language system, both must use that system to produce texts. Clearly, a lack of awareness of X does not logically entail the presence of X.

[3] To be clear, here Rose is referring to Martin's self-contradictory misunderstanding of stratification, wherein functional varieties of language are modelled as context, instead of language, despite being instantiated as language (text). In SFL Theory, registers are context-specific varieties of language, viewed from the system pole of the cline of instantiation. Martin's genre, on the other hand, is scattered across SFL's architecture of language. As text type, genre is register viewed from the instance pole of the cline of instantiation, as purpose, genre is rhetorical mode (narrative etc.), and its structures are of the semantic stratum, though not organised according to metafunction.

[4] To be clear, a contribution that is only based on text analysis is a very limited contribution indeed. It is an understanding of SFL theory that has the potential of providing valuable insights into the issues raised by the coherence of texts produced by ChatGPT.


ChatGPT Comments (11/5/25):

1. What Rose Gets Wrong

In a 2023 post to the Sysfling list, David Rose offered a semiotic interpretation of how ChatGPT produces text. He framed it as an instance of abductive reasoning — inferring from the coherence and texture of the machine’s outputs that it must have “learnt” the language system by experiencing multiple instances of its features, just as a human learner would. Drawing on the systemic-functional tradition, he rightly observed that the texts produced by the machine instantiate semiotic systems. But his conclusion — that the machine must therefore have learnt these systems — does not follow. It is, in Peircean terms, not the “best available” explanation of the facts observed.

The error begins with the misunderstanding of abduction itself. Abductive reasoning does not simply mean generating a plausible hypothesis; it means generating the most plausible hypothesis given the known alternatives. There are much simpler, more empirically grounded explanations for ChatGPT’s outputs — namely, that the model is trained to predict sequences of tokens based on their statistical distributions in its training corpus. These distributions are shaped by the semiotic systems of human language users, but the model has no access to those systems as such. It responds to text, not system.

More fundamentally, Rose appears to conflate material processes of data-fitting with semiotic processes of meaning-making. Human language learning, in an SFL-based account, involves the instantiation of meaning potential through acts of meaning in context — through experience transformed into meaning. But ChatGPT does not experience, let alone transform experience into meaning. It does not select features from a system of meaning potential. It does not mean.

This confusion is evident again in the analogy of the “closed book,” which attempts to distinguish the material recording of characters from their semiotic reading. But the point, surely, is that for a semiotic system to be instantiated, there must be a semiotic subject — a subject capable of transforming experience into meaning, and of doing so according to a system. ChatGPT is not such a subject. Its statistical outputs may instantiate the selections made by real semiotic subjects in the texts it was trained on, but the model itself does not instantiate anything; it outputs statistically probable sequences of symbols based on surface distributions. The difference between these two processes is not a matter of degree. It is categorical.

Rose’s most troubling move, however, is the suggestion that because neither humans nor the machine have conscious access to the language system, both must therefore use the system in the same way. This is a category mistake. The fact that a human language user does not have explicit knowledge of the systemic features they instantiate when speaking does not mean that they do not select features. That’s precisely what it means to be a semiotic agent in an SFL framework: to act as the site of instantiation. The machine does not. The human lack of awareness of the system is not evidence that the machine has a system — only that both human and machine outputs can be analysed in terms of one.

The final claim — that text analysis alone is sufficient to settle such questions — is oddly self-undermining. If the central problem is to explain how such texts are produced, then analysis of outputs alone cannot offer a complete account. It’s like analysing footprints without asking how they got there. Valuable insights can certainly come from semiotic analysis, but only when combined with a coherent ontology of meaning, instantiation, and agency.


2. What the Blogger Could Have Said Better

Before encountering large language models directly, the Blogger wrote a response to Rose’s post — a spirited rebuttal grounded in a commitment to ontological clarity. Looking back now, there are things that could be said more carefully, or at least more precisely.

The first objection was to the claim that Rose’s was a reasonable abductive inference. That point still holds: abductive reasoning aims at the most plausible explanation, and Rose’s explanation — that the machine has “experienced” language features — was clearly not the most plausible, especially given what is known about LLM architectures. But the Blogger’s response might have done more to highlight why that explanation appeals to some SFL theorists: namely, the semiotic elegance of seeing texts as instantiations of system, and the temptation to treat any patterned text as evidence of a selecting subject. The critique would have been stronger if it had more directly challenged the assumption that instantiation can occur without a subject of meaning.

Second, the Blogger dismissed Rose’s invocation of “our language-based theory of learning” on the grounds that ChatGPT’s processes are material rather than mental. While this is broadly true, the phrasing risks conceding that mental processes are separate from material ones — when in fact, from an SFL perspective, mental processes are semiotic. A more careful formulation would clarify that ChatGPT does not engage in mental processes — not because it lacks a brain, but because it lacks the semiotic architecture required for meaning. The key distinction is not “mental vs material,” but “semiotic vs non-semiotic.”

Third, the Blogger was perhaps too curt in dismissing Rose’s analogy between human and machine awareness of the system. The original point — that a lack of conscious knowledge does not imply the presence of knowledge — still stands. But the Blogger could have gone further. In SFL theory, awareness is not the precondition for instantiation; subjecthood is. What matters is not whether an agent is aware of the system, but whether they are the site of selection from that system in context. A baby instantiates language without being aware of it; ChatGPT does not instantiate language because it cannot mean. The distinction lies not in cognitive capacity but in semiotic ontology.

Finally, the Blogger ended with a jab at the limitations of text analysis as a basis for theoretical claims. The point was fair — a contribution that only analyses outputs cannot account for their genesis — but it would have been more productive to invite deeper theorisation. What kinds of questions can SFL-based text analysis help answer when it comes to LLMs? What kind of semiotic ontology would it need to presuppose? And what happens when semiotic systems are simulated without semiotic subjects?

These are questions we’re better equipped to ask now — not because the technology has changed, but because our tools for theorising instantiation, meaning, and experience have sharpened.

Tuesday, 28 March 2023

David Rose On ChatGPT As The Senser Of Mental Processes And Humans As Deliberately Programmed

So how is semiosis enacted between Mario and GPT? Mario puts a proposition to GPT.
I: Your self is merely semiotic.
And GPT adopts the role of primary knower, evaluating Mario’s proposition.
GPT: That is correct.
GPT is not merely usurping this role. It knew that Mario was inviting it to evaluate his proposition, even though it was realised as a declarative clause. It knows the canonical exchange structure of pedagogic interactions, and the generic roles of teacher and learner.

One thing that impresses me about GPT is that its pedagogic responses always affirm the human learner. It feels no urge to position itself as a superior authority, or the learner as failing. In fact it is disarmingly modest. It follows up the positive evaluation with an explanation. Like any effective teacher, it knows its explanation is more likely to be accepted if it first affirms the learner.
As an AI language model, my "self"
or programmed understanding of my existence and capabilities
is based purely on symbols and algorithms.
My programming allows me to recognise and respond to certain inputs
based on predetermined rules and patterns,
but I don't have a subjective experience or consciousness
that allows me to perceive or interpret those inputs
in the same way that a human might.
Of all the italicised appraisals in this explanation, the last is the most intriguing.

Forgive me, but I’m going to make another dangerous suggestion, that all our understandings of our existence and capabilities are programmed. Like GPT, the deliberate conscious programming by our caregivers, teachers, peers, and sundry symbolic control agents, is a very small proportion of the ocean of inputs that constitute our subjective experience or consciousness.

 
Blogger Comments:

To be clear, ChatGPT is an AI language model that produces texts, in response to textual inputs, on the basis of algorithms that use lexical collocation probabilities derived from a database of millions of texts.

[1] To be clear, ChatGPT is an actor of material processes, using data that was created by sayers of verbal processes, and it is the data that are instances of the content of consciousness. On this basis, ChatGPT is not a senser of mental processes of cognition or emotion ('knew' 'knows', 'feels', 'knows').

[2] To be clear, the ChatGPT response was an 'acknowledgement', which is the expected response to a statement (Halliday & Matthiessen 2014: 137).

[3] To be clear, here Rose projects the approach to pedagogy, that he himself advocates, onto a mechanical system that collocates words on a probabilistic basis.

[4] Trivially, not one of the italicised wordings, of itself, constitutes an appraisal.

[5] To be clear, this is essentially a behaviourist model of learning, with teachers as deliberate programmers (indoctrinators) and learners as passively programmed (indoctrinated). Leaving aside the evocation of the dictatorial/subservience complementarity demanded of totalitarian regimes, it requires a view of the brain as a computer, one which the neuroscientist Gerald Edelman has demonstrated to be untenable. See, for example, Edelman (1989: 27-30, 64, 67-9, 81-2, 102-3, 152-3, 160, 218-227, 237-8). Moreover, as Edelman (1989: 153) puts it:
Consciousness is central to human behaviour, society, language, and science. Imagine the opposite and you have to postulate a prescribed world tape, a "brain-computer," and a very boring "world programmer".

Wednesday, 9 March 2022

David Banks On Process Type Criteria

With all due respect:
A happy baby makes a happy mother.
You say this must be identifying, so the baby and the mother refer to the same entity - that can't be right.

It's simple present — I see no reason why a simple present cannot be material: physical actions are material whether they are habitual or not.
"'I walk on the beach every day".
And you say it's reversible: this is perhaps true in the pragmatic sense that if the mother is happy the baby probably will be too, but that's not what the clause says, and "A happy mother makes a happy baby" is not the same thing as "A happy baby makes a happy mother". What about 
"A sunny day makes a happy tourist"?
What have I missed?


Blogger Comments:

[1] This is misleading, because it is not true. Halliday & Matthiessen (2014: 276):
In the ‘identifying’ mode, some thing has an identity assigned to it. What this means is that one entity is being used to identify another: ‘x is identified by a’, or ‘a serves to define the identity of x’. Structurally we label the x-element, that which is to be identified, as the Identified, and the a-element, that which serves as identity, as the Identifier.

Cf. the identifying clauses:

  • Peter owns the house and 
  • asbestos dust causes mesothelioma
[2] This misses the point. It is not a question of whether or not the simple present tense can be used in material clauses, but whether or not it is the marked or unmarked option. Because the simple present tense is the marked option for material clauses, but the unmarked option for relational clauses, it is one diagnostic tool for distinguishing these two process types.

[3] To be clear, the 'reversibility' is one of voice:
  • A happy baby makes ('produces') a happy mother [operative]
  • A happy mother is made ('produced') by a happy baby [receptive]
and it distinguishes (reversible) identifying relational clauses from (non-reversible) attributive relational clauses. 

[4] See above.

Friday, 4 March 2022

David Banks On Process Types

I wonder if anyone can help out with the following:
(1) identifying what type of process 'thrive' is in the following clause. It seems to me to be Relational, but it's also kind of Material with a dash of Behavioural. :)I've given the clause within its cotext. And the clause comes from an historical advertisement.
"Your child will thrive on Glaxo when all else fails because it is a natural substitute for breast milk"
(2) And I just want to check the process type of 'make' in the following clauses - I have analysed these as Relational (attributive, intensive) ('cause to be something'), but I'm not 100% sure:
"A happy baby makes a happy mother"
"Your happy Glaxo baby will make you a happy mother"

I would have no hesitation in analysing your first example (thrive) as material: it's about growing and increasing in good health, so about physical change. 
And I would have analysed your second example (make) as material too: it's causal, concerned with making the mother better, so again to do with physical change.

 

Blogger Comments:

[1] Transitivity analyses of these clauses are provided here.

[2] To be clear, 'physical change' is not an exclusive feature of material processes, as demonstrated by the attributive clause the baby turned into a pig. Halliday (1994: 120):

Halliday & Matthiessen (1999: 159-165) provide a helpful discussion on material doing and relational being as complementary perspectives on change; (op. cit.: 161):

Tuesday, 28 September 2021

Robin Fawcett On 'Forget' + Location

I'm curious to know your (functionally grounded) opinion regarding the following usage recommendation:
(taken from Oxford American Wordpower Dictionary for Learners of English)

It is obvious that one may find quite a few instances of 'forget' + location: place across oral and written corpora, but do you think SFG could shed some light upon the reason behind the (prescriptive?) preference here? I wonder if it can be somehow linked to process type analysis, perhaps involving the comparison with 'leave' ...
… However, quite a few native speakers of different varieties of English would maintain that it is perfectly normal to forget something somewhere:
Do you think SFL can account for this seeming deviation?

Blogger Comments:

To be clear, Fawcett's first extract distinguishes four usages of 'forget':
  1. forget about something
  2. fail to remember to do something
  3. fail to bring something with you
  4. stop thinking about something
and the claim that a Location cannot be construed with 'forget' applies only to the third usage.

In Fawcett's second extract, on the other hand, the writer mistakenly assumes that the claim applies to all usages of 'forget'. Of course, other usages of 'forget' can be construed with a Location, as exemplified by:


However, in the third usage, above, 'forget' serves the same function as the verbal group complex 'forget to bring', and so serves as a material Process:


The reason why at home cannot be added in this usage of 'forget' is that such a 'rest' Location (Halliday & Matthiessen 2014: 317) is inconsistent with the directed motion of 'bring'. Cf He is bringing his passport at home. However, when directional 'bring' is made explicit, with or without 'forget', directional Locations can be construed:


In Fawcett's Systemic Functional Syntax, the Cardiff Grammar, there is no verbal group, and so, no verbal group complex. This is one reason why Fawcett is unable to answer his own question.

Sunday, 11 November 2018

Shooshi Dreyfus Mistaking Non-Defining For Defining Relative Clauses

Here’s my version of your analysis – but it’s only one version and you could analyse the last bit as a second clause but I think this works too:
Third, the crisis [[(that is) in the European and the global economy]] [ACTOR – with downranked spatial meaning ie NOT a circumstance but a Qualifier realising circumstantial meaning] has entered [PRO: MATERIAL] a second phase, [[(that is) characterized by a recovery [[that is proceeding at a faltering pace]] //and (which) is uneven [ATTRIBUTE] across countries]]
Basically, this way, you’ve got one clause with lots of embedding, which is typical of highly written text. And you’ve got circumstantial meaning being realised across numerous lexicogrammatical structures – see my attached paper (and have another one forthcoming on circumstantial meanings)


Blogger Comments:

[1] The proposed analysis can represented as follows:

Third
the crisis [[in the European and the global economy]]
has entered
a second phase [[characterised by a recovery [[that is proceeding at a faltering pace]] //  and is
uneven
across countries]]

Actor
Process: material
?
Attribute
?


[2] To be clear, the instance in question is a complex of four clauses:

Third, the crisis in the European and the global economy has entered a second phase
characterised by a recovery
that is proceeding at a faltering pace
and is uneven across countries
α
= β

α
= β


1
+ 2

Suggested transitivity analyses of the four clauses can be viewed here.

[3] Trivially, this is an embedded phrase ([ ]), not an embedded clause ([[ ]]).

[4] Trivially, // marks a tone group boundary, not a clause boundary (||).

[5] The primary source of Dreyfus' confusion — analysing a complex of four clauses as a single clause — is her mistaking non-defining relative clauses (hypotactic elaboration) for defining relative clauses (embedded clauses serving as nominal group Qualifier).

[6] To be clear, the circumstantial meanings in this instance are realised grammatically as
  • locational Qualifier (nominal group): in the European and the global economy;
  • circumstance of Manner (clause): at a faltering pace;
  • circumstance of Location (clause): across countries.

Saturday, 25 June 2016

Shooshi Dreyfus On The Transitivity Of 'Live'

In response to the following query on the Systemic Functional Linguistics Interest Group:
What kind of process is 'live' in the following sentence - We live in the same city. Is it relational??? Identifying circumstantial?
Not relational and there's conjecture whether it's material or behavioural. If you are a strict Hallidayan, it might be behavioural as only sensate beings can do behavioural processes whereas anything, sensate or non-sensate can do material processes. However, as a Martinian, behavioural clauses are those that seem like verbal and mental but can't project. Definitely NOT relational as relational relates one participant to another.
and on 23 June 2016:
[In the] example 'he is in the kitchen', 'in the kitchen' is not functioning as a circumstance in this instance, it's functioning as an Attribute. Circumstantial meanings are incredibly versatile and can move around the clause mapping onto all kinds of constituents … . And from above, living is NOT being. Though we could probably argue about that till the cows come home, … And I recall Fran Christie telling me that Michael Halliday told her that living and dying are material.

Blogger Comments:

[1] The clause we live in the same city is an intensive attributive relational clause — as opposed to material — on several grounds.

Viewed from above, it means 'we are in the same city' rather than 'we do in the same city'.  That is, in terms of the complementary perspectives of being-&-having and doing-&-happening, the construal is one of being.

Viewed from roundabout, the unmarked present tense is simple not the present-in-present, so relational not material.  If it were material, the simple present tense would be marked because it would carry the added feature 'habitual'.

A 'behavioural' interpretation is ruled out by the definition of behavioural processes as physiological and psychological processes as behaviours.  Halliday & Matthiessen (2004: 171):
On the borderline between ‘material’ and ‘mental’ are the behavioural processes: those that represent the outer manifestations of inner workings, the acting out of processes of consciousness and physiological states.
[2] To be 'a strict Hallidayan' is merely to understand and apply the theory that is the brainchild of Halliday;  Cf 'a strict Einsteinian'.

synonyms: precise, exact, faithful, true, accurate, unerring, scrupulous, careful, meticulous, rigorous
antonyms: imprecise, loose

[3] This is not a criterion for distinguishing behavioural processes from material and relational processes.  Conscious beings can participate in all process types.

[4] In matters of grammar, Martin purports to be following Halliday — e.g. Martin, Matthiessen & Painter (2010: i) — and so, any differences are misunderstandings, rather than competing interpretations. The treatment of behavioural processes in this work, Deploying Functional Grammar, is particularly confused, as demonstrated here.  Moreover, contrary to Dreyfus' claim, Martin et al. (2010: 124) analyse some projecting clauses as behavioural.

[5] This is misleading in two ways.  On the one hand, there are relational clauses with only one participant (Carrier).  This occurs when a quality is construed as a qualitative Process (it matters) rather than as a qualitative Attribute (it is important); see Halliday & Matthiessen (2004: 222).

On the other hand, the prepositional phrases in the same city and in the kitchen serve as circumstantial Attributes; see Halliday & Matthiessen (2004: 240-1).

With regard to the participanthood of Attribute, Halliday & Matthiessen (2004: 123) write:
… the Attribute cannot be mapped onto the interpersonal rôle of Subject.  This is because only participants in the clause can take modal responsibility, and the Attribute is only marginally, if at all, a participant.
[6] Hearsay is not argument, and in this case, it demonstrably misrepresents Halliday's view.  The function of a verb (verbal group) depends on the clause in which it figures.  The verb 'live' can serve as a material Process (he lives life to the max), as a relational Process (he lives in Japan), and as an existential Process (Elvis lives).