tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-56652355242384317562024-03-19T09:04:15.738+11:00Thoughts That Cross My MindTurning Confidently Expressed Misconstruals Of Systemic Functional Linguistic Theory Into Pedagogical OpportunitiesUnknownnoreply@blogger.comBlogger443125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5665235524238431756.post-16035948367281313572024-03-19T09:03:00.000+11:002024-03-19T09:03:42.729+11:00Most Pageviews by Country<div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: justify;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEhFFMEBDYVm1oI1ZzzLOlUVltocSezh0xnt2ZlV7tPl6ZTLnNiTxSrc4mdhZDYLo8H3qEPaD11AEvDqm3T9H5JYmIslemBI93pNRN5voI2SLpXpQd1XQDix-E-KJXwA4BYcaXzd5zXDhBxeW2B7XkRP1Wmgzx02dCCOMdB3E0RuxRbu6LYV_6OMcnNaB5uv/s1452/Screenshot%202024-03-19%20at%209.02.35%20am.png" imageanchor="1" style="margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><img border="0" data-original-height="1452" data-original-width="1348" height="640" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEhFFMEBDYVm1oI1ZzzLOlUVltocSezh0xnt2ZlV7tPl6ZTLnNiTxSrc4mdhZDYLo8H3qEPaD11AEvDqm3T9H5JYmIslemBI93pNRN5voI2SLpXpQd1XQDix-E-KJXwA4BYcaXzd5zXDhBxeW2B7XkRP1Wmgzx02dCCOMdB3E0RuxRbu6LYV_6OMcnNaB5uv/w594-h640/Screenshot%202024-03-19%20at%209.02.35%20am.png" width="594" /></a></div>Unknownnoreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5665235524238431756.post-77182779366694131882024-03-15T16:00:00.001+11:002024-03-15T16:19:37.882+11:00David Kellogg On Logic And Tone<div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEidOdsx2pkSgoKeMk54-BF07PqlMjEXijcXfRZc-UcGa68yZGVkPZDo9DzGZrQgbNLJHlhl4vsH5V3_5SDsc5HDMIiAVD2YIttWgHfSdOIUsBE5RerI6_KhR99DkNeb4xSnjcPFKWrs2EYvgASNPTw2ducyAnrthIZFeeHkEzKvQSaWrBxvCtCck_loIhlp/s80/dk.png" imageanchor="1" style="clear: left; float: left; margin-bottom: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><img border="0" data-original-height="80" data-original-width="80" height="80" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEidOdsx2pkSgoKeMk54-BF07PqlMjEXijcXfRZc-UcGa68yZGVkPZDo9DzGZrQgbNLJHlhl4vsH5V3_5SDsc5HDMIiAVD2YIttWgHfSdOIUsBE5RerI6_KhR99DkNeb4xSnjcPFKWrs2EYvgASNPTw2ducyAnrthIZFeeHkEzKvQSaWrBxvCtCck_loIhlp/s1600/dk.png" width="80" /></a></div><table cellpadding="0" class="ajC" style="background-color: white; border-spacing: 0px; color: #222222; font-family: "Google Sans", Roboto, RobotoDraft, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 14px; line-height: 20px;"><tbody><tr class="UszGxc ajv"><td class="gL" colspan="2" style="margin: 0px; padding: 2px 0px; text-align: justify; vertical-align: top; width: auto;" tabindex="0"><a href="https://www.freelists.org/post/sys-func/R-Re-informal-fallacy-of-the-week,1" target="_blank">David Kellogg wrote to sys-func on 9 Mar 2024, at 08:19</a>:</td></tr></tbody></table><blockquote><div style="text-align: justify;"><span style="color: #674ea7;">Not one of the responses has really taken up b), the argument which says that </span><span style="color: #e06666;">logic cannot be "applied" directly to scientific problems</span><span style="color: #674ea7;">, because the level of organisation at which and the concepts and data to which the logic must be applied are radically different, so logic itself develops as we move from arithmetic to statistics, and still more as we move from math to physics to chemistry to biology to socio-psychology to semiotics.</span></div><div style="text-align: justify;"><br /></div><div style="text-align: justify;">Now, in itself, these data points suggest to me that...well, that we are human, and the <span style="color: #ff00fe;">"tone" in which something is said is not simply part of the grammar (Halliday and Greaves, 2009) but also part of our semantics and part of the context of situation</span> <span style="color: red;">Chris's attempt to imagine argumentation where tone is not an essential part of the argument</span> is chimerical. …</div><div style="text-align: justify;"><br /></div><div style="text-align: justify;">Halliday would say it somewhat differently: he would say that "logical" arguments, and even my meta-logical argument, are just everyday language (i.e. my aggressively intoned argument) which has been "tidied up", and he would probably agree that <span style="color: #ff00fe;">tidying up "tone" is, in the long run, impossible for humans to do: it is literally like trying to speak without any intonation at all.</span></div></blockquote><p><br /></p><p><u><b>Blogger Comments</b></u>:</p><p style="text-align: justify;"><span style="color: #674ea7;">[1]</span> To be clear, logical validity is argument–internal, since it is concerned with premisses and the reasoning from premisses to conclusions. Logical validity, therefore, does not vary with the field in which it is applied.</p><p style="text-align: justify;"><span style="color: #e06666;">[2]</span> To be clear, logical validity is a means of distinguishing arguments that are valid from arguments that are fallacious. Applied to scientific problems, logical validity is a means of distinguishing scientific solutions that rest on arguments that are valid from scientific solutions that rest on arguments that are fallacious.</p><p><span style="color: #ff00fe;">[3]</span> To be clear, this confuses the phonological system of <span style="font-size: x-small;">TONE</span> with tone in the sense of 'tone policing'.</p><p style="text-align: justify;"><span style="color: red;">[4]</span> This is misleading, because it is untrue. <span style="font-size: x-small;">ChRIS</span> — whose PhD thesis was on phonology — did not attempt to imagine argumentation without intonation. He simply informed the sys-func subscribers of the logical fallacy known as tone policing:</p><blockquote><div style="text-align: justify;"><a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tone_policing">Tone policing</a> – focusing on emotion behind (or resulting from) a message rather than the message itself as a discrediting tactic.</div></blockquote><div style="text-align: justify;"></div>Unknownnoreply@blogger.com1tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5665235524238431756.post-50728104638119133122024-02-25T00:00:00.141+11:002024-02-25T00:00:00.252+11:00David Rose On Theories, Communities And Academic Fields<div style="text-align: justify;"><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEiFf5ZAT1HFdm8p5ujJt00_DssQxaS4WYVVjMHDWogaYD5DKjMyXmwQ4kxU4EoDqHq06YpV8qpLND87Z4O-dUakuZ3vBRCTSvtj_1e3pqsKLhMaIDzm7ceFgouWpqwE-D4iTgNauiS8nvSrN386ukZ5BLMkgR48Bi7Nc112R_6a9LsWUQW_ewPKZhrzd3Y5/s160/drose_small.jpg" style="clear: left; float: left; margin-bottom: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><img border="0" data-original-height="160" data-original-width="120" height="71" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEiFf5ZAT1HFdm8p5ujJt00_DssQxaS4WYVVjMHDWogaYD5DKjMyXmwQ4kxU4EoDqHq06YpV8qpLND87Z4O-dUakuZ3vBRCTSvtj_1e3pqsKLhMaIDzm7ceFgouWpqwE-D4iTgNauiS8nvSrN386ukZ5BLMkgR48Bi7Nc112R_6a9LsWUQW_ewPKZhrzd3Y5/w53-h71/drose_small.jpg" width="53" /></a></div><a href="https://www.freelists.org/post/asflanet/betterorworse,6" target="_blank">David Rose wrote to asflanet on 23 Feb 2024, at 11:04</a>:</div><blockquote><div style="text-align: justify;"><span style="color: #ff00fe;">Perhaps we need to consider theories in relation to the communities that affiliate around them.</span> <span style="color: #800180;">Academic fields are highly structured and metastable...until they aren’t.</span></div></blockquote><p><br /></p><p><b><u>Blogger Comments</u></b>:</p><p style="text-align: justify;"><span style="color: #ff00fe;">[1]</span> To be clear, this sociological approach says nothing about the validity of a theory that communities "affiliate around", as demonstrated by the community that is bound together by the theory that the Earth is flat, or by the theory that Earth was created on October 22, 4004 BC. But such a sociological approach is nevertheless valuable, to the extent that it enables the comparison of what counts as evidence across different communities.</p><p style="text-align: justify;"><span style="color: #800180;">[2]</span> This confuses field with community. Field is the ideational dimension of the culture as <b>semiotic </b>system, which includes theories, which is distinct from the <b>social</b> structure of a community.</p>Unknownnoreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5665235524238431756.post-71827578107203135282024-02-24T00:00:00.120+11:002024-02-25T01:57:36.337+11:00David Rose On 'The Days Of Auld Lang Syne'<div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEij2dbzOCPLBFRtwdD-5LwhiME5dwu1pKNeiLo0KUKtoOvTQ5ojPcBK497RUzb_EgDCSfUPBvUuHIw2vNl3hciEdkRhwC3U0EnXEZTzfNKwWSh9m2BvPyNJUEZJwlBtLwjgxLSVWE6r0iqYomuBHSS-Uyg9qxp_RBB6VteKwipUDPQ1taa_SLR-LNxLRG9J/s160/drose_small.jpg" style="clear: left; float: left; margin-bottom: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><img border="0" data-original-height="160" data-original-width="120" height="160" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEij2dbzOCPLBFRtwdD-5LwhiME5dwu1pKNeiLo0KUKtoOvTQ5ojPcBK497RUzb_EgDCSfUPBvUuHIw2vNl3hciEdkRhwC3U0EnXEZTzfNKwWSh9m2BvPyNJUEZJwlBtLwjgxLSVWE6r0iqYomuBHSS-Uyg9qxp_RBB6VteKwipUDPQ1taa_SLR-LNxLRG9J/s1600/drose_small.jpg" width="120" /></a></div><a href="https://www.freelists.org/post/asflanet/grammar-analysis-only,64" target="_blank">David Rose replied to Rosemary Huisman on asflanet on 22 Feb 2024, 20:32:</a><div style="text-align: justify;"></div><blockquote><div style="text-align: justify;"><span style="color: red;">So the actual structure is a nom gp</span></div></blockquote><blockquote style="border: none; margin: 0px 0px 0px 40px; padding: 0px;"><blockquote><div style="text-align: justify;"><i>the days of auld lang syne</i></div></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote> <div style="text-align: justify;">The Scottish National Dictionary gives multiple glosses for <i>syne</i>, including ‘ago’. In which case <span style="color: red;">it’s an ellipsed embedded clause</span></div></blockquote><blockquote style="border: none; margin: 0px 0px 0px 40px; padding: 0px;"><blockquote><div style="text-align: justify;"><i><span style="color: red;">the days [of old] [[long ago]]</span></i></div></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote><div style="text-align: justify;"><span style="color: red;">(Qualifier probes are <i>which days?</i> and <i>which days of old?</i>)</span></div><div style="text-align: justify;"></div></blockquote><div style="text-align: justify;"><br /></div><div style="text-align: justify;"><br /></div><div style="text-align: justify;"><u><b>Blogger Comments</b></u>:</div><div style="text-align: justify;"><br /></div><div style="text-align: justify;">To be clear, Rose provides constituency and two functions, but no structural analysis. Returning to the original Scots wording, and applying the standard model of SFL Theory, <i>lang syne</i> is an adverbial group that elaborates the prepositional phrase <i>of auld </i>in a paratactic complex that serves as the Qualifier of <i>days</i>:</div><div><div style="text-align: justify;"><br /></div><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: justify;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEgcRJvFVc7DVBkLWjZsGD45ZwtMDhlVStncvlQsjqf9MxlxSkR_3qJ_6L3CizDJx-mylp6guSUKHAd0Gpw8rOrtRGEthGtd_tYt2LRTU2dxzcPtJgdtaqRDv3zJr6lhVVIuIucBXU0MMTMWOBxCJJHPDWjcyaSIDlqqy11daGVQEbkl_ngOHV3mxPU-YJnI/s344/%60.png" style="margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><img border="0" data-original-height="93" data-original-width="344" height="96" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEgcRJvFVc7DVBkLWjZsGD45ZwtMDhlVStncvlQsjqf9MxlxSkR_3qJ_6L3CizDJx-mylp6guSUKHAd0Gpw8rOrtRGEthGtd_tYt2LRTU2dxzcPtJgdtaqRDv3zJr6lhVVIuIucBXU0MMTMWOBxCJJHPDWjcyaSIDlqqy11daGVQEbkl_ngOHV3mxPU-YJnI/w354-h96/%60.png" width="354" /></a></div><br /><div style="text-align: justify;"><span style="text-align: left;">Both units of the Qualifier realise the meaning 'in the past', with the second elaborating the first, and t</span><span style="text-align: left;">he relation is paratactic, because neither depends on the other:</span></div></div><blockquote><i>The days of auld</i> (old)<br /><i>The days lang syne</i> (long ago)</blockquote><p>However, on the model of Halliday (1994: 193):</p><p></p><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: justify;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEicf6ApdpjmSert24JmNQvO0_KKhyphenhyphenWONT0H_AfIkUps-rk5iNdlO5aW2lmfemczLHF3JzmuYQ2Jpz22guVRGAqy527fNcV1fENlvwsv9U0-2e7B5Kg-feA7X1AZZOfdJZGxU_SmHcQl0pIXGdb4d7CoGjJuq6RlatNe05lH7kffdNSw2nssvBKI4pIHEKd-/s700/p193.png" style="margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><img border="0" data-original-height="164" data-original-width="700" height="94" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEicf6ApdpjmSert24JmNQvO0_KKhyphenhyphenWONT0H_AfIkUps-rk5iNdlO5aW2lmfemczLHF3JzmuYQ2Jpz22guVRGAqy527fNcV1fENlvwsv9U0-2e7B5Kg-feA7X1AZZOfdJZGxU_SmHcQl0pIXGdb4d7CoGjJuq6RlatNe05lH7kffdNSw2nssvBKI4pIHEKd-/w400-h94/p193.png" width="400" /></a></div><br /> the logical structure is:<p></p><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: justify;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEjUz6G1nYJ8SPSMVcqXGY9NIUUnGkZHSVUCwZV-D83O3wGc3F8NEHPSbLX2iJ5zTJJi77-d3tmolDu3vQO1YifzbcukGCcxK7B7TfKe2VmGH_3xO-QAEBic76d0HguT02irCh91ufAZ5v7UClZPecEURXMDIfCvAlrSYy0E8DYZy7pyYAhx2CnZRGlhxg-N/s370/1.png" style="margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><img border="0" data-original-height="96" data-original-width="370" height="104" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEjUz6G1nYJ8SPSMVcqXGY9NIUUnGkZHSVUCwZV-D83O3wGc3F8NEHPSbLX2iJ5zTJJi77-d3tmolDu3vQO1YifzbcukGCcxK7B7TfKe2VmGH_3xO-QAEBic76d0HguT02irCh91ufAZ5v7UClZPecEURXMDIfCvAlrSYy0E8DYZy7pyYAhx2CnZRGlhxg-N/w400-h104/1.png" width="400" /></a></div>Unknownnoreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5665235524238431756.post-37942277989430329242024-02-23T00:00:00.062+11:002024-02-23T05:28:00.630+11:00David Rose On 'Ago' And Premodified And Postmodified Adverbial Groups<div style="text-align: justify;"><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEjdQ6733OgNuqC0Gej05r09cwYOxjyMqzNynPUqKhMkdDBDXE6_pj8bZmiku8r8f7aL3_Z-CTxau1sO9IcOnvkxNXwopBkeBXAmwz5p3J9zQFa-ydShi9ZP-Iu19o2-BBL5RPRZx1HNa8hpw-30NaT4ytUz22DwKwAFvHP4ZJLOLfaJOUeR4qfp_PGAuRZ1/s160/drose_small.jpg" style="clear: left; float: left; margin-bottom: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><img border="0" data-original-height="160" data-original-width="120" height="160" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEjdQ6733OgNuqC0Gej05r09cwYOxjyMqzNynPUqKhMkdDBDXE6_pj8bZmiku8r8f7aL3_Z-CTxau1sO9IcOnvkxNXwopBkeBXAmwz5p3J9zQFa-ydShi9ZP-Iu19o2-BBL5RPRZx1HNa8hpw-30NaT4ytUz22DwKwAFvHP4ZJLOLfaJOUeR4qfp_PGAuRZ1/s1600/drose_small.jpg" width="120" /></a></div><a href="https://www.freelists.org/post/asflanet/grammar-analysis-only,62" target="_blank">David Rose replied to Rob Spence on asflanet on Feb 2024, at 14:17</a>:</div><div style="text-align: justify;"></div><blockquote><div style="text-align: justify;">By ‘surface syntax’ do you mean the syntagm face of our structure-&-syntagm (function-&-class) pairings? If so, <span style="color: #ff00fe;">Qualifier is realised by an embedded clause or prep phrase, which excludes adverbs like <i>ago</i>.</span> From above, the Qualifier function defines its Thing, probed by <i>which (Thing)?</i>, <span style="color: #800180;">which also excludes adverbs like <i>ago</i>. This was Pin’s point</span>, not subjectively perceived, but a consistently recurring functional criterion. I think you’re right that <span style="color: #6aa84f;">we need to be ‘strictly consistent about doubled-up Function-and-Class labelling’</span></div><div style="text-align: justify;"><br /></div><div style="text-align: justify;"><span style="color: red;">For interest here’s another adv gp analysed in this way</span>... </div></blockquote><blockquote> <span style="background-color: red;"><img height="179" src="https://mail.google.com/mail/u/0?ui=2&ik=22af9c7828&attid=0.2&permmsgid=msg-f:1791567461780620176&th=18dced1d46950390&view=fimg&fur=ip&sz=s0-l75-ft&attbid=ANGjdJ9mIqoNmq4SOS8D1DvYiEyVGk3LV7ShYn4RgDTLSweE2F34QUrzNdA1yiPm-uBL0W5oVlPMg6_Y13-RGdQZzhyYoP5VuigWOnuDw3zCAl9vpeSP8owUHz_SHa0&disp=emb" width="200" /></span><p class="MsoNormal" style="background-color: white; color: #222222; font-size: small; margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family: inherit;"><u></u> <u></u></span></p><div style="text-align: justify;">IFG also discusses a type of comparative adv gp, that is post-modified with an embedded clause or phrase. It is isn’t named but I’ve used ‘esphoric’ here by analogy with <span style="color: #3d85c6;">esphoric reference in nom gps</span>, like <i>the children [in blue hats]</i></div><p class="MsoNormal" style="background-color: white; color: #222222; font-size: small; margin: 0px;"><i><span style="font-family: inherit;"></span></i></p></blockquote><p class="MsoNormal" style="background-color: white; color: #222222; font-size: small; margin: 0px;"></p><blockquote><span style="background-color: #990000; color: #990000; font-family: inherit;"><img class="CToWUd a6T" data-bit="iit" data-image-whitelisted="" height="161" id="m_-3418608358809321458Picture_x0020_2" src="https://mail.google.com/mail/u/0?ui=2&ik=22af9c7828&attid=0.1&permmsgid=msg-f:1791567461780620176&th=18dced1d46950390&view=fimg&fur=ip&sz=s0-l75-ft&attbid=ANGjdJ-o2xGzxJ23rkdXK9W2bA6knpuaFZfCwbaSBeijfOk2tfuzEM48BYEi5GcObHz5mdqnzg28B9qf0uwocbF1isRbIxXR6TnX_Nk5DmuSftLY21zfqfa0Hj67Z6c&disp=emb" style="cursor: pointer; height: 1.677in; outline: 0px; width: 2.4687in;" tabindex="0" width="237" /></span></blockquote><p> </p><p><u><b>Blogger Comments</b></u>:</p><p style="text-align: justify;"><span style="color: #ff00fe;">[1]</span> This is misleading, because it is untrue. In the nominal group <i>some 4,600 million years ago</i>, the Thing <i>years</i> is characterised by the <b>embedded adverbial group</b> <i>ago. </i>The fact that <i>ago</i> can be premodified demonstrates that <i>ago</i> is the Head of an adverbial group.</p><div><p style="text-align: justify;"><span style="color: #800180;">[2]</span> This is misleading, because it is untrue. In the nominal group <i>some 4,600 million years ago</i>, the Thing <i>years</i> is characterised by the embedded adverbial group <i>ago</i> rather than the embedded adverbial group <i>hence</i>; that is, the Thing is characterised as 'in the past' rather than 'in the future'. See the examination of Pin Wang's argument <a href="https://thoughts-that-cross-my-mind.blogspot.com/2024/02/pin-wangs-argument-for-nominal-group.html" target="_blank">here</a>.</p><p style="text-align: justify;"><span style="color: #6aa84f;">[3]</span> This is true.</p><p style="text-align: justify;"><span style="color: red;">[4]</span> <span style="text-align: left;">To be clear, on the model of Halliday (1994), there is no submodification in this adverbial group. So:</span></p></div><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: justify;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEiMB3G8dWloZiQNNEdr50b6bXdhzvgIBqFsNiui2RsmqUv6V700-GTJvmGFR19T-0soPzbOxzqp51Zi6qTXaJVuLOamlZHRZRRAQUPEg6MxM45eWwL5UFmdA1Rw1dnmqVi6w6YjucYOTJP6m3ssH9M4FI_-XJauDUEcw-y1mGLKANOSMrGjdWSzbeMOYIA3/s324/2.png" style="margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><img border="0" data-original-height="95" data-original-width="324" height="94" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEiMB3G8dWloZiQNNEdr50b6bXdhzvgIBqFsNiui2RsmqUv6V700-GTJvmGFR19T-0soPzbOxzqp51Zi6qTXaJVuLOamlZHRZRRAQUPEg6MxM45eWwL5UFmdA1Rw1dnmqVi6w6YjucYOTJP6m3ssH9M4FI_-XJauDUEcw-y1mGLKANOSMrGjdWSzbeMOYIA3/s320/2.png" width="320" /></a></div><div><br /></div><div><div style="text-align: justify;">That is, Rose proposes internal bracketing, or nesting, where there is none, giving the analysis:</div><blockquote><span style="text-align: justify;">α</span><span style="text-align: justify;">(β(βα)α)</span><span><span style="text-align: justify;">β</span> </span></blockquote><blockquote><div style="text-align: justify;">which can be expanded as<span style="text-align: left;"> </span></div></blockquote><blockquote><span style="text-align: justify;">α</span><span style="text-align: justify;">ββ ^ </span><span style="text-align: justify;">α</span><span style="text-align: justify;">βα ^ </span><span style="text-align: justify;">α</span><span style="text-align: justify;">α ^ β</span></blockquote><div style="text-align: justify;">Rose then compounds the error by misinterpreting the nesting as the double embedding of adverbial groups within the adverbial group, without realising that they must be embedded on this analysis. And, again, on the belief that the adverbial groups are <i><b>not</b></i> embedded, incongruously proposes 2-unit complexes (duplexes) consisting of units of different ranks: group and word.</div></div><div><br /></div><div style="text-align: justify;"><span style="color: #3d85c6;">[5]</span> To be clear, 'esphora' is Martin's (1992: 123) rebranding of Halliday & Hasan's (1976) structural cataphora. See <a href="https://discourse-semantics.blogspot.com/2015/05/the-inconsistencies-created-by.html">The Inconsistencies Created By Rebranding Structural Cataphora As Esphora</a>.</div><div><br /></div><span style="color: #990000;">[6]</span> To be clear, on the model of Halliday (1994), there is no submodification in this adverbial group. So:<div><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: justify;"><br /></div><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: justify;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEij0xJGpeAX5wck9uMNapi7J1ic4lnVL4hvyn-dHwjK9LazShXLFDac3HtL7p3JUrTLCkIhnEhupMTQbI2cOdO6q-avBbenK4C34nBz562sizCIolW4SaNCvekKG9UVvKA8-ynavmykWb31o1hDDkiro1dqYu53Lf9jzGq7yfkAynhupOaxmPaFUEq9SK65/s417/3.png" style="margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><img border="0" data-original-height="95" data-original-width="417" height="91" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEij0xJGpeAX5wck9uMNapi7J1ic4lnVL4hvyn-dHwjK9LazShXLFDac3HtL7p3JUrTLCkIhnEhupMTQbI2cOdO6q-avBbenK4C34nBz562sizCIolW4SaNCvekKG9UVvKA8-ynavmykWb31o1hDDkiro1dqYu53Lf9jzGq7yfkAynhupOaxmPaFUEq9SK65/w400-h91/3.png" width="400" /></a></div><br /><div style="text-align: justify;">That is, Rose proposes internal bracketing, or nesting, where there is none, and includes the Postmodifier in the dependency relations, giving the analysis:</div><blockquote><div style="text-align: justify;">β(β(βα)α)α<span style="text-align: left;"> </span></div></blockquote><blockquote><div style="text-align: justify;">which can be expanded as<span style="text-align: left;"> </span></div></blockquote><blockquote><div style="text-align: justify;">βββ ^ ββα ^ βαβ ^ βαα ^ α</div></blockquote><div style="text-align: justify;">Rose again compounds the error by misinterpreting the nesting as the triple embedding of adverbial groups within the adverbial group, without realising that they must be embedded on this analysis. And, again, on the belief that the adverbial groups are not embedded, incongruously proposes 2-unit complexes (duplexes) consisting of units of different ranks: group and word.</div><div style="text-align: justify;"><br /></div><div style="text-align: justify;">And, even in terms of his own approach, Rose has neglected to analyse his final adverbial group <i>so much</i> as the subjacency duplex #βα.</div><p></p></div>Unknownnoreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5665235524238431756.post-81308598197391634522024-02-22T00:00:00.098+11:002024-02-22T18:08:04.147+11:00David Rose Adding Classes To His Analysis Of An Adverbial Group<p></p><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEhalJ2nkwXSA8zWRm5Yr0pENCPJYg6gSQGciNBDn0LY5kiRaX8fdwoEJqJBrfby-Z0Cpj8FszT-usU2-dpNBlNL3subyW6jtWfFg5gDsx_sZgMdDgy-BW_i1p3vKe8G9kTXi9KtR1w8AC6J-ZXqU-HzwBBecJa4EK52S00QRUc5lwfSvTWGgIo505l4NQbv/s160/drose_small.jpg" style="clear: left; float: left; margin-bottom: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><img border="0" data-original-height="160" data-original-width="120" height="160" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEhalJ2nkwXSA8zWRm5Yr0pENCPJYg6gSQGciNBDn0LY5kiRaX8fdwoEJqJBrfby-Z0Cpj8FszT-usU2-dpNBlNL3subyW6jtWfFg5gDsx_sZgMdDgy-BW_i1p3vKe8G9kTXi9KtR1w8AC6J-ZXqU-HzwBBecJa4EK52S00QRUc5lwfSvTWGgIo505l4NQbv/s1600/drose_small.jpg" width="120" /></a></div><a href="https://www.freelists.org/post/asflanet/grammar-analysis-only,59" target="_blank"><span style="text-align: justify;">David Rose wrote </span><span style="text-align: justify;">to asflanet </span></a><span style="text-align: justify;"><a href="https://www.freelists.org/post/asflanet/grammar-analysis-only,59" target="_blank">on 20 Feb 2024, at 20:30</a>:</span><p></p><blockquote><div style="text-align: justify;">Adding <span style="color: red;">classes</span> doesn't tell us much more about <span style="color: #ff00fe;">this adv gp</span></div><p class="MsoNormal" style="background-color: white; color: #222222; font-family: Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: small; margin: 0px;"><span style="font-size: 11pt;"></span></p></blockquote><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0px;"></p><blockquote style="font-family: Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: small;"><span style="background-color: red; color: red; font-size: 11pt;"><img class="CToWUd a6T" data-bit="iit" data-image-whitelisted="" height="238" id="m_-6244913544217929981Picture_x0020_2" src="https://mail.google.com/mail/u/0?ui=2&ik=22af9c7828&attid=0.2&permmsgid=msg-f:1791409699878584457&th=18dc5da17873c089&view=fimg&fur=ip&sz=s0-l75-ft&attbid=ANGjdJ8yEPYmWGeTpFktgB3PL0GsjJGSx0frFz3nemvBWh3Fr3ydCmHyOFa37ChcTRsPSl8yEcpcM8FBZQ1xp5SASr9gkfZbt8vX_EKDG6sVei3_Q5eAkuPq69K5KLg&disp=emb" style="cursor: pointer; height: 2.4791in; outline: 0px; width: 2.8437in;" tabindex="0" width="273" /></span></blockquote><br /><br /><b><u>Blogger Comments</u></b>: <p></p><div><span style="color: #ff00fe;">[1]</span> To be clear, for Halliday (1994: 210), there is no submodification in this adverbial group:</div><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: justify;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEh_m6AKpNGvrlR1qdFWgHBOuo9FOAOXjGvVdJirkaT90Jixml6kjcg21OPFBXfBmOqY7kqalCH28oHhXIT2_2KxR-IB8sp3r0vb_yOSnTxlpN42kik3g248FULHOMC8J-JdQjvFXB_4KPoM6VCvMkQCiMAGcVJt-3v3FXDE5UqTY41MjalBw5usO-HfmdB9/s562/1.png" style="margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><img border="0" data-original-height="188" data-original-width="562" height="92" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEh_m6AKpNGvrlR1qdFWgHBOuo9FOAOXjGvVdJirkaT90Jixml6kjcg21OPFBXfBmOqY7kqalCH28oHhXIT2_2KxR-IB8sp3r0vb_yOSnTxlpN42kik3g248FULHOMC8J-JdQjvFXB_4KPoM6VCvMkQCiMAGcVJt-3v3FXDE5UqTY41MjalBw5usO-HfmdB9/w274-h92/1.png" width="274" /></a></div><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: justify;">So</div><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: justify;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEiPM0o0NLGWNuhBBqaHdJ2GbP3Vzm7nDDstkkScDmuTiQHlKPO-9-Fk8E5oa84bqfdChedJXm-8py1pE_NZ6BI1QHOqSohBMqaLxGDH5IpGFxrV68Aa4UAu8eoNQywnZNt56xyGOzi4l_2BbVtEASKKxuipUkW4MwC1VJoAw6KL6qX9RbEKrVDJq7cpnYJR/s387/1.png" style="margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><img border="0" data-original-height="95" data-original-width="387" height="99" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEiPM0o0NLGWNuhBBqaHdJ2GbP3Vzm7nDDstkkScDmuTiQHlKPO-9-Fk8E5oa84bqfdChedJXm-8py1pE_NZ6BI1QHOqSohBMqaLxGDH5IpGFxrV68Aa4UAu8eoNQywnZNt56xyGOzi4l_2BbVtEASKKxuipUkW4MwC1VJoAw6KL6qX9RbEKrVDJq7cpnYJR/w400-h99/1.png" width="400" /></a></div><div><br /></div><div>As can be seen, the dependency relations all obtain between words.</div><div><br /><div style="text-align: justify;"><span style="color: red;">[2]</span> To be clear, Rose proposes internal bracketing, or nesting, where there is none, giving the analysis:</div><blockquote><div style="text-align: justify;">β(β(β(βα)α)α)α<span style="text-align: left;"> </span></div></blockquote><blockquote><div style="text-align: justify;">which can be expanded as<span style="text-align: left;"> </span></div></blockquote><blockquote><div style="text-align: justify;">ββββ ^ βββα ^ ββαβ ^ ββαα ^ α</div></blockquote><div style="text-align: justify;">Rose then compounds the error by misinterpreting the nesting as the triple embedding of adverbial groups within the adverbial group, without realising that they must be embedded on this analysis. And, on the belief that the adverbial groups are <i><b>not</b></i> embedded, incongruously proposes 2-unit complexes (duplexes) consisting of units of different ranks: group and word.</div></div>Unknownnoreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5665235524238431756.post-67831777369687740682024-02-21T13:30:00.015+11:002024-02-23T13:03:57.477+11:00David Rose On Focus As Phonology And Jim Martin's Fastidiousness<div class="separator"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEh2Oary_4d3lLtPdjY2jvGPg0HDoytczV6YpYWWMwnSRHtP7VqHdaxhBvCJlqY6Z_pMGokEhGlPX1qvoUFlw7TJPc5v6CLHnkIO6k4Kid2OXe_9hDpg8IaDJIO3zqBtTQMfU4DZPClWuR2A73Kp2kmWPT44RvULmqULM4_-hqyijTHL5ZWVVx5lxTGZjbnR/s160/drose_small.jpg" style="clear: left; float: left; margin-bottom: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><img border="0" height="112" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEh2Oary_4d3lLtPdjY2jvGPg0HDoytczV6YpYWWMwnSRHtP7VqHdaxhBvCJlqY6Z_pMGokEhGlPX1qvoUFlw7TJPc5v6CLHnkIO6k4Kid2OXe_9hDpg8IaDJIO3zqBtTQMfU4DZPClWuR2A73Kp2kmWPT44RvULmqULM4_-hqyijTHL5ZWVVx5lxTGZjbnR/w84-h112/drose_small.jpg" width="84" /></a></div><a href="https://www.freelists.org/post/asflanet/grammar-analysis-only,56">David Rose replied to Rob Spence on asflanet on 20 Feb 2024, at 12:31</a>:<div style="text-align: justify;"></div><blockquote><div style="text-align: justify;"><span style="color: #ff00fe;">I think you’ll find the term ‘</span><span style="color: red;">focus</span><span style="color: #ff00fe;">’ is used in phonology for the name of a system information </span><span style="color: red;">focus</span><span style="color: #ff00fe;">,</span> whose features are realised by relations between the Tonic function and lexicogrammar. (More hill than ditch ;-) <span style="color: red;"><span>Focus</span> isn’t used as a function term.</span></div><div style="text-align: justify;"><img border="0" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEgwJTVWajGMpQjt8X21GtraY2dUxgKo-kjtnVaLMBppuMPnjrxCzLyR3UKGOICGRcT8VeGnIQgzdt2nwxsAx8VYMyAggH5YdASdE5MNtpf-ORXnAjE0hPPwYnYClDFcG5DljDP8seY4EWMn8u927G83ld3Vz8oQkz6BRV1whlAMEkfZ2zTy-XlgA0rRXopR/w640-h192/1.jpg" /></div></blockquote><div style="text-align: justify;"></div><blockquote><div style="text-align: justify;"><span style="color: #800180;">I think you’ll also find that Jim has always been fastidiously careful about distinguishing terms between strata,</span> <span style="color: #3d85c6;">which I guess he learnt from Michael</span> (all those years ago), and has been teaching others, as <span style="color: #e06666;">the canon</span> has proliferated (all these years since).</div><div style="text-align: justify;"><br /></div><div style="text-align: justify;"><span style="color: #b45f06;">He is also fastidiously careful about acknowledging those whose work he and colleagues are building on. </span><span style="color: #7f6000;">How to show respect for others is nicely modelled in current work on register systems, carefully framed in relation to that of Halliday (53 refs), Hasan (42), Carmel Cloran, Cate Poynton and others</span>...</div></blockquote><div style="text-align: justify;"></div><div style="text-align: justify;"><br /></div><div style="text-align: justify;"><br /></div><div style="text-align: justify;"><b><u>Blogger Comments</u></b>:</div><div style="text-align: justify;"><br /></div><div style="text-align: justify;"><span style="color: #ff00fe;">[1]</span> To be clear, <span style="font-size: x-small;">INFORMATION</span> is a system of lexicogrammar, not phonology. Halliday & Matthiessen (2014: 115):</div><blockquote><div style="text-align: justify;">… the system of <span style="font-size: x-small;">INFORMATION</span>. This is a system not of the clause, but of a separate grammatical unit, the information unit (cf. Halliday, 1967a, 1967/8; Halliday & Greaves, 2008: Section 5.1). The information unit is a unit that is parallel to the clause and the other units belonging to the same rank scale as the clause.</div></blockquote><p>The misunderstanding of <span style="text-align: justify;"><span style="font-size: x-small;">INFORMATION</span></span> as phonology can be sourced to Martin (1992: 384, 401).</p><p style="text-align: justify;"><span style="color: red;">[2]</span> This is misleading, because it is untrue. To be clear, 'focus' refers to the lexicogrammatical element of structure that is realised by tonic prominence (Halliday & Matthiessen 2014: 116). Halliday (1992: 371):</p><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: justify;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEiVpLLT8X3raalUuAHAR-xWFXEmj09aMyXgADjcpLuUfg5Vr6qXhHBb15vSlVoohTJIQQPUPO9B0MPg3hjnfRZfhoJAuMkFu7nt_Vtcy0Zc-3kNzYu2r1_JFQXIBGboXugrIhSDrVAeFfatWfvrxbeX_VKkf99BhDK8TTTOOQ2fOvMxlbu1kEfgrpAth4Wj/s794/p371.png" imageanchor="1" style="margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><img border="0" data-original-height="308" data-original-width="794" height="248" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEiVpLLT8X3raalUuAHAR-xWFXEmj09aMyXgADjcpLuUfg5Vr6qXhHBb15vSlVoohTJIQQPUPO9B0MPg3hjnfRZfhoJAuMkFu7nt_Vtcy0Zc-3kNzYu2r1_JFQXIBGboXugrIhSDrVAeFfatWfvrxbeX_VKkf99BhDK8TTTOOQ2fOvMxlbu1kEfgrpAth4Wj/w640-h248/p371.png" width="640" /></a></div><span><div style="color: #800180;"><span style="color: #800180;"><br /></span></div><div style="text-align: justify;"><span style="color: #800180;">[3]</span> This is misleading, because it is untrue. Martin uses the most of the terms from lexicogrammatical cohesion (Halliday & Hasan 1976) in rebranding it as his discourse semantics. Evidence <a href="https://discourse-semantics.blogspot.com/" target="_blank">here</a>.</div><div style="color: #800180; text-align: justify;"><br /></div></span><div style="text-align: justify;"><span style="color: #3d85c6;">[4]</span> To be clear, Martin (hypocritically) criticises Halliday for 'not distinguishing terms between strata'. Ngo, Hood, Martin, Painter, Smith & Zappavigna (2022: 232):</div><div style="text-align: justify;"><blockquote>… confusion invited by the use of grammatical terminology for semantic description in several SFL publications, particularly those dealing with grammatical metaphor (e.g. Halliday and Matthiessen, 1999).</blockquote><p>But, in any case, the objection is based on a misunderstanding. A functional grammar interprets grammatical form in terms of its function, which is to realise meaning. In grammatical metaphor, the meaning of a grammatical form is incongruent with the meaning being realised. It is the use of meaning terminology on both strata that enables the systematic description of grammatical metaphor. And, as Halliday & Matthiessen (1999: 237) point out:</p><blockquote class="tr_bq"><span>Of course, what we are recognising here as two distinct constructions, the semantic and the grammatical, never had or could have had any existence the one prior to the other; they are our analytic representation of the overall semioticising of experience — how experience is construed into meaning. <b>If the congruent form had been the only form of construal, we would probably not have needed to think of semantics and grammar as two separate strata: they would be merely two facets of the content plane, interpreted on the one hand as function and on the other as form</b>.</span></blockquote><p><span style="color: #e06666;">[5]</span> For the motivation behind this theological term for what in science would be called 'the standard theory', see <a href="https://whatliesbeneathsfl.blogspot.com/2022/11/6-culture-of-faith-of-sfl-community.html">The Culture Of 'Faith' In The SFL Community</a>.</p><p><span style="color: #b45f06;">[6]</span> This misleads through what it omits. It is true that Martin generally acknowledges his sources, though he doesn't always acknowledge that an idea comes from his source rather than himself. <span style="text-align: start;">Evidence </span><a href="https://discourse-semantics.blogspot.com/" style="text-align: start;" target="_blank">here</a><span style="text-align: start;">. But more importantly, having acknowledged his sources, Martin then renames their ideas so that all future references will be to his work and not theirs, thereby giving himself credit for the ideas of others. See for example, <a href="https://discourse-semantics.blogspot.com/search/label/rebranding" target="_blank">here</a> (Martin 1992) and <a href="https://modelling-paralanguage.blogspot.com/search/label/rebranding" target="_blank">here</a> (</span>Ngo, Hood, Martin, Painter, Smith & Zappavigna 2022).</p><p><span style="color: #7f6000;">[7]</span> To be clear, Martin named these scholars because they provided the source of his ideas. Martin then rebranded 'register' as his stratum of context, so all references to register by his readership refer to his model rather than Halliday's original model. Moreover, Martin's model of register is full of self-contradictions. For example, his register is context, not language, despite register being a functional variety of language (cf. beef and dairy cattle not being categorised as 'cattle'); and though it is context, not language, it is instantiated as text, which is language, not context. And this is just the tip of the iceberg.</p></div>Unknownnoreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5665235524238431756.post-25245564424894172152024-02-19T15:00:00.021+11:002024-02-21T17:49:23.030+11:00David Rose On Theory As Theological<p style="text-align: justify;"></p><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEg2QFVVQuVuUUoMAFiA3DBdC3MKJq5GFOh2eN3qdR7rB2mZnZYcvvq-ziRCrZs4cBwTeD6nx3DnVCUl2foD7CrbHSe5Vr7lmiqbbLn_c2St3VzjGT296z52q5xvGwQPF9bb1OYP192hnCtVRNeSkZEzimWSjMkoSIRoHgtA95gibmFF7u27N-5HEYlJfAPD/s160/drose_small.jpg" style="clear: left; float: left; margin-bottom: 1em; margin-right: 1em; text-align: justify;"><img border="0" data-original-height="160" data-original-width="120" height="160" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEg2QFVVQuVuUUoMAFiA3DBdC3MKJq5GFOh2eN3qdR7rB2mZnZYcvvq-ziRCrZs4cBwTeD6nx3DnVCUl2foD7CrbHSe5Vr7lmiqbbLn_c2St3VzjGT296z52q5xvGwQPF9bb1OYP192hnCtVRNeSkZEzimWSjMkoSIRoHgtA95gibmFF7u27N-5HEYlJfAPD/s1600/drose_small.jpg" width="120" /></a></div><div style="text-align: justify;"><a href="https://www.freelists.org/post/asflanet/Criticism-in-SFL,6" target="_blank">David Rose wrote to asflanet on 18 Feb 2024, at 12:36</a>:</div><p></p><blockquote><div style="text-align: justify;"><span style="color: #a64d79;">Theories are also constellations of icons that </span><span style="color: #3d85c6;">adherents</span><span style="color: #a64d79;"> affiliate around</span> (thanks Michelle Z and Ken Tann). <span style="color: #7f6000;">Basil Bernstein recognised the roots of secular theories in medieval theology,</span> following Durkheim (‘the fundamental categories of science are of religious origin’, 1915:418) and Max Weber (the original ‘legitimation’ theorist). Here’s BB in 2000...</div><div style="text-align: justify;"></div><blockquote><div style="text-align: justify;"><span style="font-size: x-small;">The religious field is constituted by three positions which stand in various relations of complementarity and opposition. In the religious field, we have the prophets, we have the priests, and we have the laity. The rule is that one can only occupy one category at a time. Priests cannot be prophets, and prophets cannot be priests, and the laity cannot be either. There is a natural affinity between prophets and laity, and there is a natural opposition between prophets and priests. These are the lines of opposition structuring the religious field.</span></div><div style="text-align: justify;"><span style="font-size: x-small;"><br /></span></div><div style="text-align: justify;"><span style="color: #674ea7; font-size: x-small;">If we look at the structure of the pedagogic field, we also have basically three positions that provide analogues to the prophets, priests and laity. The ‘prophets’ are the producers of the knowledge, the ‘priests’ are the recontextualisers or the reproducers, and the ‘laity’ are the acquirers. Thus, we have the structure of the pedagogic field.</span></div></blockquote><div style="text-align: justify;"><span style="color: #ff00fe;">Icons like <i>immanence</i> and <i>transcendence</i></span> are borrowed directly from theological beliefs about the relation of spirit to matter, for which <span style="color: #3d85c6;">adherents</span> could be excommunicated or worse :-( <span style="color: #b45f06;">Bateson’s metatheorising was explicitly theological, rebadging god as ‘mind’ which he believed was immanent in the ‘supreme cybernetic system’. In Lexie’s quote below, he is concerned with the theological question of ‘truth’.</span>* <span style="color: #800180;">In contrast, Lemke is more interested in the ‘usefulness’ of theories, or as MAKH would call it, ‘appliability’.</span></div><div style="text-align: justify;"><br /></div><div style="text-align: justify;">* Distinct from <span style="color: red;">philosophical argumentation about truth value of propositions, which is closer to Chris’ yes/no questions of ‘validity’ here.</span></div></blockquote><p style="text-align: justify;"><br /></p><p style="text-align: justify;"><b><u>Blogger Comments</u></b>:</p><p style="text-align: justify;"><span style="color: #a64d79;">[1]</span> To be clear, this is sociology: a model of human behaviour. It doesn't distinguish theories (metaphenomena) from favourite football teams, favourite tennis players, favourite pop stars or favourite gurus (phenomena). Nor does it distinguish academics from sports fans, pop music fans or devotees of gurus. That is, it is a model of behaviour with no regard for the intellect and reasoning behind the behaviour.</p><p></p><div style="text-align: justify;"><span style="color: #3d85c6;">[2]</span> Synonyms of 'adherent' include:</div><div><blockquote style="text-align: justify;">follower, supporter, upholder, defender, advocate, disciple, votary, partisan, friend, member, stalwart, fanatic, zealot, believer, worshipper, attender, fan, admirer, enthusiast, devotee, lover, addict, aficionado, hanger-on, groupie, buff, freak, fiend, nut, maniac, booster, cohort, rooter, janissary, sectary</blockquote><p style="text-align: justify;"><span style="color: #7f6000;">[3]</span> To be clear, not theology and not mediæval. Not theology, because <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theology" target="_blank">theology is the study of religious belief from a religious perspective</a>. Not mediæval, because, as the comparative mythologist Joseph Campbell points out, science fulfils the cosmological function of mythology, and because mythology involves the use of lexical metaphor to reconstrue meaning construed of experience, this dates back to the beginning of metaphor which, according to Halliday was made possible by the stratification of the content plane, which he claims turned <i>Homo …</i> into <i>Homo sapiens</i> (Halliday & Matthiessen 2014: 25).</p><p style="text-align: justify;"><span style="color: #674ea7;">[4]</span> To be clear, this a sociological model of the social structure of a pedagogic field. That is, it is a model of teachers and teaching, not of the semiotic process of theorising.</p><p style="text-align: justify;"><span style="color: #ff00fe;">[5]</span> To be clear, from an epistemological perspective, 'immanence' and 'transcendence' are orientations to meaning in Western thinking. Halliday & Matthiessen (1999: 415, 416):</p><div style="text-align: justify;"></div><blockquote><div style="text-align: justify;">We can identify two main traditions in Western thinking about meaning (see Halliday, 1977):</div><div style="text-align: justify;"></div><blockquote><div style="text-align: justify;">(i) one oriented towards logic and philosophy, with language seen as a system of rules;</div><div style="text-align: justify;"><br /></div><div style="text-align: justify;">(ii) one oriented towards rhetoric and ethnography, with language seen as resource. …</div></blockquote></blockquote><div style="text-align: justify;"></div><blockquote><div style="text-align: justify;">The two orientations towards meaning thus differ externally in what disciplines they recognise as models. These external differences are associated with internal differences as well.</div><div style="text-align: justify;"><br /></div><div style="text-align: justify;">(i) First, the orientations differ with respect to where they locate meaning in relation to the stratal interpretation of language:</div><div style="text-align: justify;"></div><blockquote><div style="text-align: justify;">(a) intra-stratal: meaning is seen as immanent — something that is constructed in, and so is part of, language itself. The immanent interpretation of meaning is characteristic of the rhetorical-ethnographic orientation, including our own approach.</div><div style="text-align: justify;"><br /></div><div style="text-align: justify;">(b) extra-stratal: meaning is seen as transcendent — something that lies outside the limits of language. The transcendent interpretation of meaning is characteristic of the logico-philosophical orientation.</div></blockquote></blockquote><p><span style="color: #b45f06;">[6]</span> Rose's interpretation of Bateson is rejected by an expert on Bateson's work. See <a href="https://www.freelists.org/post/asflanet/Criticism-in-SFL,12" target="_blank">here</a>. </p><p style="text-align: justify;"><span style="color: #800180;">[7]</span> To be clear, Ptolemy's Earth-centred model of the known Universe in terms of epicycles was appliable but invalid. Copernicus's Sun-centred model was less appliable, but more valid. Appliability is no guarantee of theoretical validity.</p><div style="text-align: justify;"><blockquote><span style="font-size: x-small;">The astronomical predictions of <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geocentric_model#Ptolemaic_system">Ptolemy's geocentric model</a>, developed in the 2nd century CE, served as the basis for preparing astrological and astronomical charts for over 1,500 years. The geocentric model held sway into the early modern age, but from the late 16th century onward, it was gradually superseded by the heliocentric model of Copernicus (1473–1543), Galileo (1564–1642), and Kepler (1571–1630). There was much resistance to the transition between these two theories. Some felt that a new, unknown theory could not subvert an accepted consensus for geocentrism.</span></blockquote></div><p style="text-align: justify;"><span style="color: red;">[8]</span> This is very misleading indeed. On the one hand, the truth value of propositions is the concern of the logico-philosophical tradition, not the rhetorical-ethnographic tradition in which SFL is located. On the other hand, validity is not simply a question of whether propositions are true or false. Validity is a matter of whether conclusions follow from premises. For example,</p></div><blockquote style="border: none; margin: 0px 0px 0px 40px; padding: 0px; text-align: left;"><blockquote style="border: none; margin: 0px 0px 0px 40px; padding: 0px; text-align: left;"><p style="text-align: justify;"></p></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote style="border: none; margin: 0px 0px 0px 40px; padding: 0px; text-align: left;"><span style="text-align: justify;">Given these epistemological assumptions, is this theory valid?</span><br /><div style="text-align: justify;">Given this theoretical model, is this application of the theory valid? </div></blockquote><p style="text-align: center;">∞</p><p style="text-align: justify;">See also <a href="https://whatliesbeneathsfl.blogspot.com/2022/11/6-culture-of-faith-of-sfl-community.html" style="text-align: justify;">The Culture Of 'Faith' In The SFL Community</a>.</p><p></p><div style="text-align: justify;"></div>Unknownnoreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5665235524238431756.post-7071386829711387762024-02-18T00:00:00.002+11:002024-02-18T00:00:00.254+11:00David Rose On The Absence Of Published Criticism Of Each Other’s Work<div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEi7hMxZ9Hv3yxcMwNguF5O5nwNbVuHDkVl0-HUnrdSsUO2rZq7RdGbggYOcOcHuC40yY7q44QPTLErCm_Dvb-_4Z3kCjGa7dCemiTm447dr3uenLgY8ZCsQcltnYsiEreP4jDcnFq99_JTvITP7dv-ga6TJQi582eR_JFCFc2m9qHhZhyphenhyphenke5ScZFBpyak0L/s160/drose_small.jpg" style="clear: left; float: left; margin-bottom: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><img border="0" data-original-height="160" data-original-width="120" height="160" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEi7hMxZ9Hv3yxcMwNguF5O5nwNbVuHDkVl0-HUnrdSsUO2rZq7RdGbggYOcOcHuC40yY7q44QPTLErCm_Dvb-_4Z3kCjGa7dCemiTm447dr3uenLgY8ZCsQcltnYsiEreP4jDcnFq99_JTvITP7dv-ga6TJQi582eR_JFCFc2m9qHhZhyphenhyphenke5ScZFBpyak0L/s1600/drose_small.jpg" width="120" /></a></div><a href="https://www.freelists.org/post/asflanet/Criticism-in-SFL" target="_blank">David Rose wrote to asflanet on 14 Feb 2024, at 10:37</a>:<div style="text-align: justify;"></div><blockquote><div style="text-align: justify;"><span style="color: red;">An interesting feature of SFL, in contrast to some other linguistic schools, is an absence of published criticism of each other’s work.</span> You can see <span style="color: #ff00fe;">this ethic of learning from each other and getting on with it</span> continually in Halliday’s interviews. …</div></blockquote><p><a href="https://www.freelists.org/post/asflanet/Criticism-in-SFL,2" target="_blank">And again at 13:27</a>:</p><blockquote><div style="text-align: justify;"><span style="color: #800180;">The point is that linguistics sits in the humanities and has inherited its habits, especially philosophy’s notions of truth and falsehood.</span> <span style="color: #3d85c6;">SFL’s approach to observing and theorising is closer to how science works.</span></div></blockquote><p> </p><p><b><u>Blogger Comments</u></b>:</p><p style="text-align: justify;"><span style="color: red;">[1]</span> This is misleading because it is untrue. Martin (1992) criticises Hasan's work on cohesion, Hasan (1995) criticises Martin's stratification of context, and Fawcett (2010) criticises Halliday's model of grammar, to name but three.</p><p style="text-align: justify;"><span style="color: #ff00fe;">[2]</span> To be clear, 'learning from each other and getting on with it', without critical assessment of each other's work, is an anti-intellectual approach that serves the interests of the incompetent, and not just fosters, but proliferates theoretical misunderstandings and poor quality work. See <a href="https://whatliesbeneathsfl.blogspot.com/2022/11/2-culture-of-anti-intellectualism-in.html" style="text-align: left;">The Promotion Of Anti-Intellectualism In The SFL Community</a></p><div style="text-align: justify;"><span style="color: #800180;">[3]</span> As Halliday has pointed out, we don't argue about truth, we argue about validity.</div><ul style="text-align: left;"><li><span style="text-align: justify;">Are the assumptions on which this theory is founded valid?</span></li><li><span style="text-align: justify;">Is this theoretical description valid?</span></li><li>Is this interpretation of theory valid?</li></ul><div style="text-align: justify;"><span style="color: #3d85c6;">[4]</span> To be clear, SFL is a scientific theory, but the culture of much of the SFL community is more like that of a religious fellowship. See</div><div style="text-align: justify;"><br /></div><blockquote style="border: none; margin: 0px 0px 0px 40px; padding: 0px; text-align: left;"><a href="https://whatliesbeneathsfl.blogspot.com/2022/11/1-scientific-status-of-systemic.html" style="text-align: justify;">The Scientific Status Of Systemic Functional Linguistic Theory</a><br /><a href="https://whatliesbeneathsfl.blogspot.com/2022/11/6-culture-of-faith-of-sfl-community.html" style="text-align: justify;">The Culture Of 'Faith' In The SFL Community</a></blockquote><blockquote><div style="text-align: justify;"><span style="font-size: x-small;"></span></div></blockquote><div style="text-align: justify;"></div>Unknownnoreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5665235524238431756.post-74027577653164144232024-02-17T10:30:00.001+11:002024-02-17T10:42:52.652+11:00David Rose On Layers Of Subjacency<p><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEhwFggSnmHtFE5HiYQP7VcxwLat8xg1yqK0Pwcs5SDWH4MQ-JvUiYjbe3EVTkCxzwzK-pAlUjaKZuOe5MNNbyFVAEHXoHhN3ROCJYonMrSKuIXS6dZtXHLEyyFAxlhKCvyYBcz83xyLmaHoZBt41LaLzy28h0kuIsN0gewHzu13VF9vyHpV7HIJklwrjFef/s160/drose_small.jpg" style="clear: left; display: inline; float: left; margin-bottom: 1em; margin-right: 1em; text-align: center;"><img border="0" data-original-height="160" data-original-width="120" height="144" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEhwFggSnmHtFE5HiYQP7VcxwLat8xg1yqK0Pwcs5SDWH4MQ-JvUiYjbe3EVTkCxzwzK-pAlUjaKZuOe5MNNbyFVAEHXoHhN3ROCJYonMrSKuIXS6dZtXHLEyyFAxlhKCvyYBcz83xyLmaHoZBt41LaLzy28h0kuIsN0gewHzu13VF9vyHpV7HIJklwrjFef/w108-h144/drose_small.jpg" width="108" /></a><a href="https://www.freelists.org/post/asflanet/grammar-analysis-only,50" target="_blank">David Rose wrote to asflanet on 11 Feb 2024, at 15:08</a>:<span style="background-color: white; color: #222222; font-family: inherit; text-align: justify;"> </span></p><blockquote><p class="MsoNormal" style="background-color: white; color: #222222; margin: 0px; text-align: justify;"><span style="font-family: inherit;">In IFG there’s an analysis of adv gp as recursive hypotaxis...</span><span style="background-color: transparent;"> </span></p></blockquote><blockquote><p class="MsoNormal" style="background-color: white; color: #222222; margin: 0px; text-align: justify;"><span style="font-family: inherit;"><u></u><u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="background-color: white; color: #222222; margin: 0px; text-align: justify;"><span style="font-family: inherit;"><span style="color: #212121;"><img alt="Image" class="CToWUd" data-bit="iit" data-image-whitelisted="" height="96" id="m_6298174326974219071Picture_x0020_1" src="https://mail.google.com/mail/u/0?ui=2&ik=22af9c7828&attid=0.1&permmsgid=msg-f:1790574085392625719&th=18d965a4cfd8f037&view=fimg&fur=ip&sz=s0-l75-ft&attbid=ANGjdJ-hzqRqYLrNMhaOiR89aImOUawiMt0N-PHvCYvLXso4aw0rqQDmpPwoSuVbaAB7yCG8ozH5N7lfA3JF4wl2nhoLzf_MoQyyxhObBl-V51pj3QmoZQf1kGyRr6Y&disp=emb" style="height: 1in; width: 5.1354in;" width="493" /></span><span style="color: #212121;"><u></u><u></u></span></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="background-color: white; color: #222222; margin: 0px; text-align: justify;"><span style="color: #212121;"><u></u> <u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="background-color: white; margin: 0px; text-align: justify;"><span style="color: #212121;">This misses the interplay of comparison, intensification and negation in this adv gp. e.g. intensification ‘very much’; comparison ‘not so very much’. Here as </span><span style="color: red;">layers of subjacency</span><span style="color: #212121;">...</span><span style="background-color: transparent; color: #222222;"> </span></p></blockquote><blockquote><p class="MsoNormal" style="background-color: white; color: #222222; margin: 0px; text-align: justify;"><span style="color: #212121;"><u></u><u></u></span></p><table border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" style="background-color: white; border-collapse: collapse; color: #222222; text-align: justify;"><tbody><tr><td style="border-bottom: 1pt solid windowtext; border-image: initial; border-left: none; border-right: none; border-top: none; margin: 0px; padding: 0cm 5.4pt; width: 49.65pt;" valign="top" width="66"><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0px;"><i><span style="color: #ff00fe; font-family: inherit;"><span>not</span><span><u></u><u></u></span></span></i></p></td><td style="border-bottom: 1pt solid windowtext; border-image: initial; border-left: none; border-right: none; border-top: none; margin: 0px; padding: 0cm 5.4pt; width: 18.05pt;" valign="top" width="24"><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0px;"><i><span style="color: #ff00fe; font-family: inherit;"><span>so</span><span><u></u><u></u></span></span></i></p></td><td style="border-bottom: 1pt solid windowtext; border-image: initial; border-left: none; border-right: none; border-top: none; margin: 0px; padding: 0cm 5.4pt; width: 46.4pt;" valign="top" width="62"><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0px;"><i><span style="color: #ff00fe; font-family: inherit;"><span>very</span><span><u></u><u></u></span></span></i></p></td><td style="border-bottom: 1pt solid windowtext; border-image: initial; border-left: none; border-right: none; border-top: none; margin: 0px; padding: 0cm 5.4pt; width: 38.2pt;" valign="top" width="51"><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0px;"><i><span style="color: #ff00fe; font-family: inherit;"><span>much</span><span><u></u><u></u></span></span></i></p></td><td style="border-bottom: 1pt solid windowtext; border-image: initial; border-left: none; border-right: none; border-top: none; margin: 0px; padding: 0cm 5.4pt; width: 36.95pt;" valign="top" width="49"><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0px;"><i><span style="color: #ff00fe; font-family: inherit;"><span>more</span><span><u></u><u></u></span></span></i></p></td><td style="border-bottom: 1pt solid windowtext; border-image: initial; border-left: none; border-right: none; border-top: none; margin: 0px; padding: 0cm 5.4pt; width: 38.2pt;" valign="top" width="51"><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0px;"><i><span style="color: #ff00fe; font-family: inherit;"><span>easily</span><span><u></u><u></u></span></span></i></p></td></tr><tr><td style="border-bottom: 1pt solid windowtext; border-left: 1pt solid windowtext; border-right: none; border-top: none; margin: 0px; padding: 0cm 5.4pt; width: 49.65pt;" valign="top" width="66"><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0px;"><span style="color: #ff00fe; font-family: inherit;"><span>b</span><span> comp<u></u><u></u></span></span></p></td><td style="border-bottom: 1pt solid windowtext; border-image: initial; border-left: none; border-right: none; border-top: none; margin: 0px; padding: 0cm 5.4pt; width: 18.05pt;" valign="top" width="24"><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0px;"><span style="color: #ff00fe;"><u></u> <u></u></span></p></td><td style="border-bottom: 1pt solid windowtext; border-image: initial; border-left: none; border-right: none; border-top: none; margin: 0px; padding: 0cm 5.4pt; width: 46.4pt;" valign="top" width="62"><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0px;"><span style="color: #ff00fe;"><u></u> <u></u></span></p></td><td style="border-bottom: 1pt solid windowtext; border-image: initial; border-left: none; border-right: none; border-top: none; margin: 0px; padding: 0cm 5.4pt; width: 38.2pt;" valign="top" width="51"><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0px;"><span style="color: #ff00fe;"><u></u> <u></u></span></p></td><td style="border-bottom: 1pt solid windowtext; border-left: none; border-right: 1pt solid windowtext; border-top: none; margin: 0px; padding: 0cm 5.4pt; width: 36.95pt;" valign="top" width="49"><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0px;"><span style="color: #ff00fe;"><u></u> <u></u></span></p></td><td style="border-bottom: none; border-image: initial; border-left: none; border-right: 1pt solid windowtext; border-top: none; margin: 0px; padding: 0cm 5.4pt; width: 38.2pt;" valign="top" width="51"><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0px;"><span style="color: #ff00fe; font-family: inherit;"><span>a</span><span><u></u><u></u></span></span></p></td></tr><tr><td style="border-bottom: 1pt solid windowtext; border-left: 1pt solid windowtext; border-right: none; border-top: none; margin: 0px; padding: 0cm 5.4pt; width: 49.65pt;" valign="top" width="66"><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0px;"><span style="color: #ff00fe; font-family: inherit;"><span>b</span><span> intens<u></u><u></u></span></span></p></td><td style="border-bottom: 1pt solid windowtext; border-image: initial; border-left: none; border-right: none; border-top: none; margin: 0px; padding: 0cm 5.4pt; width: 18.05pt;" valign="top" width="24"><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0px;"><span style="color: #ff00fe;"><u></u> <u></u></span></p></td><td style="border-bottom: 1pt solid windowtext; border-image: initial; border-left: none; border-right: none; border-top: none; margin: 0px; padding: 0cm 5.4pt; width: 46.4pt;" valign="top" width="62"><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0px;"><span style="color: #ff00fe;"><u></u> <u></u></span></p></td><td style="border-bottom: 1pt solid windowtext; border-left: none; border-right: 1pt solid windowtext; border-top: none; margin: 0px; padding: 0cm 5.4pt; width: 38.2pt;" valign="top" width="51"><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0px;"><span style="color: #ff00fe;"><u></u> <u></u></span></p></td><td style="border-bottom: none; border-image: initial; border-left: none; border-right: 1pt solid windowtext; border-top: none; margin: 0px; padding: 0cm 5.4pt; width: 36.95pt;" valign="top" width="49"><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0px;"><span style="color: #ff00fe; font-family: inherit;"><span>a</span><span><u></u><u></u></span></span></p></td><td style="border-bottom: none; border-image: initial; border-left: none; border-right: 1pt solid windowtext; border-top: none; margin: 0px; padding: 0cm 5.4pt; width: 38.2pt;" valign="top" width="51"><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0px;"><span style="color: #ff00fe;"><u></u> <u></u></span></p></td></tr><tr><td style="border-bottom: 1pt solid windowtext; border-left: 1pt solid windowtext; border-right: none; border-top: none; margin: 0px; padding: 0cm 5.4pt; width: 49.65pt;" valign="top" width="66"><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0px;"><span style="color: #ff00fe; font-family: inherit;"><span>b</span><span> comp<u></u><u></u></span></span></p></td><td style="border-bottom: 1pt solid windowtext; border-left: none; border-right: 1pt solid windowtext; border-top: none; margin: 0px; padding: 0cm 5.4pt; width: 18.05pt;" valign="top" width="24"><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0px;"><span style="color: #ff00fe;"><u></u> <u></u></span></p></td><td style="border-bottom: 1pt solid windowtext; border-image: initial; border-left: none; border-right: none; border-top: none; margin: 0px; padding: 0cm 5.4pt; width: 46.4pt;" valign="top" width="62"><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0px;"><span style="color: #ff00fe; font-family: inherit;"><span>a</span><span><u></u><u></u></span></span></p></td><td style="border-bottom: 1pt solid windowtext; border-left: none; border-right: 1pt solid windowtext; border-top: none; margin: 0px; padding: 0cm 5.4pt; width: 38.2pt;" valign="top" width="51"></td><td style="border-bottom: none; border-image: initial; border-left: none; border-right: 1pt solid windowtext; border-top: none; margin: 0px; padding: 0cm 5.4pt; width: 36.95pt;" valign="top" width="49"><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0px;"><span style="color: #ff00fe;"><u></u> <u></u></span></p></td><td style="border-bottom: none; border-image: initial; border-left: none; border-right: 1pt solid windowtext; border-top: none; margin: 0px; padding: 0cm 5.4pt; width: 38.2pt;" valign="top" width="51"><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0px;"><span style="color: #ff00fe;"><u></u> <u></u></span></p></td></tr><tr><td style="border-bottom: 1pt solid windowtext; border-image: initial; border-left: 1pt solid windowtext; border-right: 1pt solid windowtext; border-top: none; margin: 0px; padding: 0cm 5.4pt; width: 49.65pt;" valign="top" width="66"><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0px;"><span style="color: #ff00fe; font-family: inherit;"><span>b</span><span> neg<u></u><u></u></span></span></p></td><td style="border-bottom: 1pt solid windowtext; border-left: none; border-right: 1pt solid windowtext; border-top: none; margin: 0px; padding: 0cm 5.4pt; width: 18.05pt;" valign="top" width="24"><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0px;"><span style="color: #ff00fe; font-family: inherit;"><span>a</span><span><u></u><u></u></span></span></p></td><td style="border-bottom: 1pt solid windowtext; border-left: none; border-right: 1pt solid windowtext; border-top: none; margin: 0px; padding: 0cm 5.4pt; width: 46.4pt;" valign="top" width="62"><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0px;"><span style="color: #ff00fe; font-family: inherit;"><span>b </span><span>intens<u></u><u></u></span></span></p></td><td style="border-bottom: 1pt solid windowtext; border-left: none; border-right: 1pt solid windowtext; border-top: none; margin: 0px; padding: 0cm 5.4pt; width: 38.2pt;" valign="top" width="51"><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0px;"><span style="color: #ff00fe; font-family: inherit;"><span>a</span><span><u></u><u></u></span></span></p></td><td style="border-bottom: 1pt solid windowtext; border-left: none; border-right: 1pt solid windowtext; border-top: none; margin: 0px; padding: 0cm 5.4pt; width: 36.95pt;" valign="top" width="49"><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0px;"><span style="color: #ff00fe;"><u></u> <u></u></span></p></td><td style="border-bottom: 1pt solid windowtext; border-left: none; border-right: 1pt solid windowtext; border-top: none; margin: 0px; padding: 0cm 5.4pt; width: 38.2pt;" valign="top" width="51"><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0px;"><span><span style="color: #ff00fe;"><u></u> </span><span style="color: #212121;"><u></u></span></span></p></td></tr></tbody></table><p class="MsoNormal" style="background-color: white; color: #222222; margin: 0px; text-align: justify;"><br /></p></blockquote><div style="text-align: justify;"><a href="https://www.freelists.org/post/asflanet/grammar-analysis-only,51" target="_blank">and again on 13 Feb 2024, 13:32</a>:</div><p class="MsoNormal" style="background-color: white; color: #222222; margin: 0px; text-align: justify;"><a href="https://www.freelists.org/post/asflanet/grammar-analysis-only,51" target="_blank"><span style="font-family: inherit;"></span></a></p><blockquote><p class="MsoNormal" style="background-color: white; margin: 0px; text-align: justify;"><span style="font-family: inherit;"><span style="color: #222222;">Here again with formal function labels. Each function is realised by a </span><span style="color: red;">subjacency duplex</span><span style="color: #222222;">, i.e. by the </span><span style="color: #212121;">a</span><span style="color: #222222;"> </span><span style="color: #212121;">b</span><span style="color: #222222;"> relation.</span></span><span style="background-color: transparent; color: #222222;"> </span></p></blockquote><blockquote><table border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" style="background-color: white; border-collapse: collapse; color: #222222;"><tbody><tr><td style="border-bottom: 1pt solid windowtext; border-image: initial; border-left: none; border-right: none; border-top: none; margin: 0px; padding: 0cm 5.4pt;" valign="top"><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0px;"><i><span style="color: #ff00fe;">not</span></i></p></td><td style="border-bottom: 1pt solid windowtext; border-image: initial; border-left: none; border-right: none; border-top: none; margin: 0px; padding: 0cm 5.4pt;" valign="top"><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0px;"><i><span style="color: #ff00fe;">so</span></i></p></td><td style="border-bottom: 1pt solid windowtext; border-image: initial; border-left: none; border-right: none; border-top: none; margin: 0px; padding: 0cm 5.4pt;" valign="top"><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0px;"><i><span style="color: #ff00fe;">very</span></i></p></td><td style="border-bottom: 1pt solid windowtext; border-image: initial; border-left: none; border-right: none; border-top: none; margin: 0px; padding: 0cm 5.4pt;" valign="top"><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0px;"><i><span style="color: #ff00fe;">much</span></i></p></td><td style="border-bottom: 1pt solid windowtext; border-image: initial; border-left: none; border-right: none; border-top: none; margin: 0px; padding: 0cm 5.4pt;" valign="top"><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0px;"><i><span style="color: #ff00fe;">more</span></i></p></td><td style="border-bottom: 1pt solid windowtext; border-image: initial; border-left: none; border-right: none; border-top: none; margin: 0px; padding: 0cm 5.4pt;" valign="top"><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0px;"><i><span style="color: #ff00fe;">easily</span></i></p></td></tr><tr><td colspan="5" style="border-bottom: 1pt solid windowtext; border-left: 1pt solid windowtext; border-right: none; border-top: none; margin: 0px; padding: 0cm 5.4pt;" valign="top"><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0px;"><span style="color: #ff00fe;">Comparison</span></p></td><td style="border-bottom: 1pt solid windowtext; border-left: none; border-right: 1pt solid windowtext; border-top: none; margin: 0px; padding: 0cm 5.4pt;" valign="top"><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0px;"><span style="color: #ff00fe;"> </span></p></td></tr><tr><td style="border-bottom: 1pt solid windowtext; border-left: 1pt solid windowtext; border-right: none; border-top: none; margin: 0px; padding: 0cm 5.4pt;" valign="top"><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0px;"><span style="color: #ff00fe;">b</span></p></td><td style="border-bottom: 1pt solid windowtext; border-image: initial; border-left: none; border-right: none; border-top: none; margin: 0px; padding: 0cm 5.4pt;" valign="top"><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0px;"><span style="color: #ff00fe;"> </span></p></td><td style="border-bottom: 1pt solid windowtext; border-image: initial; border-left: none; border-right: none; border-top: none; margin: 0px; padding: 0cm 5.4pt;" valign="top"><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0px;"><span style="color: #ff00fe;"> </span></p></td><td style="border-bottom: 1pt solid windowtext; border-image: initial; border-left: none; border-right: none; border-top: none; margin: 0px; padding: 0cm 5.4pt;" valign="top"><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0px;"><span style="color: #ff00fe;"> </span></p></td><td style="border-bottom: 1pt solid windowtext; border-left: none; border-right: 1pt solid windowtext; border-top: none; margin: 0px; padding: 0cm 5.4pt;" valign="top"><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0px;"><span style="color: #ff00fe;"> </span></p></td><td style="border-bottom: none; border-image: initial; border-left: none; border-right: 1pt solid windowtext; border-top: none; margin: 0px; padding: 0cm 5.4pt;" valign="top"><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0px;"><span style="color: #ff00fe;">a</span></p></td></tr><tr><td colspan="4" style="border-bottom: 1pt solid windowtext; border-left: 1pt solid windowtext; border-right: none; border-top: none; margin: 0px; padding: 0cm 5.4pt;" valign="top"><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0px;"><span style="color: #ff00fe;">Degree</span></p></td><td style="border-bottom: 1pt solid windowtext; border-left: none; border-right: 1pt solid windowtext; border-top: none; margin: 0px; padding: 0cm 5.4pt;" valign="top"><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0px;"><span style="color: #ff00fe;"> </span></p></td><td style="border-bottom: none; border-image: initial; border-left: none; border-right: 1pt solid windowtext; border-top: none; margin: 0px; padding: 0cm 5.4pt;" valign="top"><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0px;"><span style="color: #ff00fe;"> </span></p></td></tr><tr><td style="border-bottom: 1pt solid windowtext; border-left: 1pt solid windowtext; border-right: none; border-top: none; margin: 0px; padding: 0cm 5.4pt;" valign="top"><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0px;"><span style="color: #ff00fe;">b</span></p></td><td style="border-bottom: 1pt solid windowtext; border-image: initial; border-left: none; border-right: none; border-top: none; margin: 0px; padding: 0cm 5.4pt;" valign="top"><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0px;"><span style="color: #ff00fe;"> </span></p></td><td style="border-bottom: 1pt solid windowtext; border-image: initial; border-left: none; border-right: none; border-top: none; margin: 0px; padding: 0cm 5.4pt;" valign="top"><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0px;"><span style="color: #ff00fe;"> </span></p></td><td style="border-bottom: 1pt solid windowtext; border-left: none; border-right: 1pt solid windowtext; border-top: none; margin: 0px; padding: 0cm 5.4pt;" valign="top"><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0px;"><span style="color: #ff00fe;"> </span></p></td><td style="border-bottom: none; border-image: initial; border-left: none; border-right: 1pt solid windowtext; border-top: none; margin: 0px; padding: 0cm 5.4pt;" valign="top"><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0px;"><span style="color: #ff00fe;">a</span></p></td><td style="border-bottom: none; border-image: initial; border-left: none; border-right: 1pt solid windowtext; border-top: none; margin: 0px; padding: 0cm 5.4pt;" valign="top"><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0px;"><span style="color: #ff00fe;"> </span></p></td></tr><tr><td colspan="4" style="border-bottom: 1pt solid windowtext; border-image: initial; border-left: 1pt solid windowtext; border-right: 1pt solid windowtext; border-top: none; margin: 0px; padding: 0cm 5.4pt;" valign="top"><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0px;"><span style="color: #ff00fe;">Comparison</span></p></td><td style="border-bottom: none; border-image: initial; border-left: none; border-right: 1pt solid windowtext; border-top: none; margin: 0px; padding: 0cm 5.4pt;" valign="top"><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0px;"><span style="color: #ff00fe;"> </span></p></td><td style="border-bottom: none; border-image: initial; border-left: none; border-right: 1pt solid windowtext; border-top: none; margin: 0px; padding: 0cm 5.4pt;" valign="top"><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0px;"><span style="color: #ff00fe;"> </span></p></td></tr><tr><td style="border-bottom: 1pt solid windowtext; border-left: 1pt solid windowtext; border-right: none; border-top: none; margin: 0px; padding: 0cm 5.4pt;" valign="top"><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0px;"><span style="color: #ff00fe;">b</span></p></td><td style="border-bottom: 1pt solid windowtext; border-left: none; border-right: 1pt solid windowtext; border-top: none; margin: 0px; padding: 0cm 5.4pt;" valign="top"></td><td style="border-bottom: 1pt solid windowtext; border-image: initial; border-left: none; border-right: none; border-top: none; margin: 0px; padding: 0cm 5.4pt;" valign="top"><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0px;"><span style="color: #ff00fe;">a</span></p></td><td style="border-bottom: 1pt solid windowtext; border-left: none; border-right: 1pt solid windowtext; border-top: none; margin: 0px; padding: 0cm 5.4pt;" valign="top"></td><td style="border-bottom: none; border-image: initial; border-left: none; border-right: 1pt solid windowtext; border-top: none; margin: 0px; padding: 0cm 5.4pt;" valign="top"><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0px;"><span style="color: #ff00fe;"> </span></p></td><td style="border-bottom: none; border-image: initial; border-left: none; border-right: 1pt solid windowtext; border-top: none; margin: 0px; padding: 0cm 5.4pt;" valign="top"><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0px;"><span style="color: #ff00fe;"> </span></p></td></tr><tr><td colspan="2" style="border-bottom: 1pt solid windowtext; border-image: initial; border-left: 1pt solid windowtext; border-right: 1pt solid windowtext; border-top: none; margin: 0px; padding: 0cm 5.4pt;" valign="top"><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0px;"><span style="color: #ff00fe;">Negation</span></p></td><td colspan="2" style="border-bottom: 1pt solid windowtext; border-left: none; border-right: 1pt solid windowtext; border-top: none; margin: 0px; padding: 0cm 5.4pt;" valign="top"><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0px;"><span style="color: #ff00fe;">Degree</span></p></td><td style="border-bottom: none; border-image: initial; border-left: none; border-right: 1pt solid windowtext; border-top: none; margin: 0px; padding: 0cm 5.4pt;" valign="top"><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0px;"><span style="color: #ff00fe;"> </span></p></td><td style="border-bottom: none; border-image: initial; border-left: none; border-right: 1pt solid windowtext; border-top: none; margin: 0px; padding: 0cm 5.4pt;" valign="top"><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0px;"><span style="color: #ff00fe;"> </span></p></td></tr><tr><td style="border-bottom: 1pt solid windowtext; border-image: initial; border-left: 1pt solid windowtext; border-right: 1pt solid windowtext; border-top: none; margin: 0px; padding: 0cm 5.4pt;" valign="top"><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0px;"><span style="color: #ff00fe;">b</span></p></td><td style="border-bottom: 1pt solid windowtext; border-left: none; border-right: 1pt solid windowtext; border-top: none; margin: 0px; padding: 0cm 5.4pt;" valign="top"><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0px;"><span style="color: #ff00fe;">a</span></p></td><td style="border-bottom: 1pt solid windowtext; border-left: none; border-right: 1pt solid windowtext; border-top: none; margin: 0px; padding: 0cm 5.4pt;" valign="top"><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0px;"><span style="color: #ff00fe;">b</span></p></td><td style="border-bottom: 1pt solid windowtext; border-left: none; border-right: 1pt solid windowtext; border-top: none; margin: 0px; padding: 0cm 5.4pt;" valign="top"><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0px;"><span style="color: #ff00fe;">a</span></p></td><td style="border-bottom: 1pt solid windowtext; border-left: none; border-right: 1pt solid windowtext; border-top: none; margin: 0px; padding: 0cm 5.4pt;" valign="top"><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0px;"><span style="color: #ff00fe;"> </span></p></td><td style="border-bottom: 1pt solid windowtext; border-left: none; border-right: 1pt solid windowtext; border-top: none; margin: 0px; padding: 0cm 5.4pt;" valign="top"><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0px;"><span style="color: #ff00fe;"> </span></p></td></tr></tbody></table><p class="MsoNormal" style="background-color: white; color: #222222; margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family: inherit;"> </span></p></blockquote><p class="MsoNormal" style="background-color: white; color: #222222; margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family: inherit;"></span></p><p><b><u>Blogger Comments</u></b>:</p><p style="text-align: justify;"><span style="color: red;">[1]</span> To be clear, here Rose simply rebrands logical structure as 'subjacency duplex'. More importantly, none of these satisfy its defining criterion of not being modifiable more than once.</p><p style="text-align: justify;"><span style="color: #ff00fe;">[2]</span> To be clear, as Halliday's analysis makes clear, there is only one level of modification in this adverbial group; that is, there is no internal bracketing. Moving from right to left in the structure simply involves increasing subcategorisation (Halliday & Matthiessen 2014: 389). So</p><blockquote style="border: none; margin: 0px 0px 0px 40px; padding: 0px; text-align: left;"><p style="text-align: justify;">How easily? more easily [comparison]<br />How more easily? much more easily [intensification]<br />How much more easily? very much more easily [intensification]<br />How very much more easily? so very much more easily [comparison]<br />How so very much more easily? not so very much more easily [negation]</p></blockquote>Unknownnoreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5665235524238431756.post-29184051601550761012024-02-16T15:30:00.003+11:002024-02-21T15:29:20.091+11:00David Rose On Subjacency Duplexes<p style="text-align: justify;"><span style="font-family: inherit;"></span></p><div style="text-align: justify;"><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEj0Up8NIbP5nDqasnprROLnV6orbNRGSgV_V94xkbBLsILTMtc89Q5p0MzDcMTEGmuKkD8qIFR9-5zN1_VVjDQKghSBDtvKP3Exm9WZ2opMkYVUEH3KxnFDEms1L64UNtbbq1M_Z5FFIrBrp9KGrJeQ4dPDvr8P6DVCOtueUhUHXexZIezEt6D-fu90D2zV/s160/drose_small.jpg" style="clear: left; float: left; margin-bottom: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><img border="0" data-original-height="160" data-original-width="120" height="160" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEj0Up8NIbP5nDqasnprROLnV6orbNRGSgV_V94xkbBLsILTMtc89Q5p0MzDcMTEGmuKkD8qIFR9-5zN1_VVjDQKghSBDtvKP3Exm9WZ2opMkYVUEH3KxnFDEms1L64UNtbbq1M_Z5FFIrBrp9KGrJeQ4dPDvr8P6DVCOtueUhUHXexZIezEt6D-fu90D2zV/s1600/drose_small.jpg" width="120" /></a></div> <a href="https://www.freelists.org/post/asflanet/grammar-analysis-only,50">David Rose wrote to asflanet on 11 Feb 2024, at 15:08</a>:</div><blockquote><p class="MsoNormal" style="background-color: white; color: #222222; margin: 0px; text-align: justify;"><span style="font-family: inherit;">Chris’ example is a nom gp, with embedded adv gp as Qualifier...</span><span style="background-color: transparent;"> </span></p></blockquote><blockquote><p class="MsoNormal" style="background-color: white; color: #222222; margin: 0px; text-align: justify;"><span style="font-family: inherit;"><u></u><u></u></span></p><table border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" style="background-color: white; border-collapse: collapse; border: none; color: #222222; text-align: justify;"><tbody><tr><td style="border-bottom: 1pt solid windowtext; border-image: initial; border-left: none; border-right: none; border-top: none; margin: 0px; padding: 0cm 5.4pt;" valign="top"><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0px;"><i><span style="color: #ff00fe; font-family: inherit;">some<u></u><u></u></span></i></p></td><td style="border-bottom: 1pt solid windowtext; border-image: initial; border-left: none; border-right: none; border-top: none; margin: 0px; padding: 0cm 5.4pt;" valign="top"><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0px;"><i><span style="color: #ff00fe; font-family: inherit;">of<u></u><u></u></span></i></p></td><td style="border-bottom: 1pt solid windowtext; border-image: initial; border-left: none; border-right: none; border-top: none; margin: 0px; padding: 0cm 5.4pt;" valign="top"><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0px;"><i><span style="color: #ff00fe; font-family: inherit;">those<u></u><u></u></span></i></p></td><td style="border-bottom: 1pt solid windowtext; border-image: initial; border-left: none; border-right: none; border-top: none; margin: 0px; padding: 0cm 5.4pt;" valign="top"><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0px;"><i><span style="color: #ff00fe; font-family: inherit;">days<u></u><u></u></span></i></p></td><td style="border-bottom: 1pt solid windowtext; border-image: initial; border-left: none; border-right: none; border-top: none; margin: 0px; padding: 0cm 5.4pt;" valign="top"><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0px;"><i><span style="color: #ff00fe; font-family: inherit;">[long<u></u><u></u></span></i></p></td><td style="border-bottom: 1pt solid windowtext; border-image: initial; border-left: none; border-right: none; border-top: none; margin: 0px; padding: 0cm 5.4pt;" valign="top"><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0px;"><i><span style="color: #ff00fe; font-family: inherit;">ago]<u></u><u></u></span></i></p></td></tr><tr><td style="border-bottom: 1pt solid windowtext; border-left: 1pt solid windowtext; border-right: none; border-top: none; margin: 0px; padding: 0cm 5.4pt;" valign="top"><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0px;"><span style="color: #ff00fe; font-family: inherit;">Focus<u></u><u></u></span></p></td><td style="border-bottom: 1pt solid windowtext; border-left: none; border-right: 1pt solid windowtext; border-top: none; margin: 0px; padding: 0cm 5.4pt;" valign="top"><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0px;"><span style="color: #ff00fe; font-family: inherit;"><u></u> <u></u></span></p></td><td style="border-bottom: 1pt solid windowtext; border-left: none; border-right: 1pt solid windowtext; border-top: none; margin: 0px; padding: 0cm 5.4pt;" valign="top"><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0px;"><span style="color: #ff00fe; font-family: inherit;">Deictic<u></u><u></u></span></p></td><td style="border-bottom: 1pt solid windowtext; border-left: none; border-right: 1pt solid windowtext; border-top: none; margin: 0px; padding: 0cm 5.4pt;" valign="top"><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0px;"><span style="color: #ff00fe; font-family: inherit;">Thing<u></u><u></u></span></p></td><td style="border-bottom: 1pt solid windowtext; border-image: initial; border-left: none; border-right: none; border-top: none; margin: 0px; padding: 0cm 5.4pt;" valign="top"><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0px;"><span style="color: #ff00fe; font-family: inherit;">Qualifier<u></u><u></u></span></p></td><td style="border-bottom: 1pt solid windowtext; border-left: none; border-right: 1pt solid windowtext; border-top: none; margin: 0px; padding: 0cm 5.4pt;" valign="top"><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0px;"><span style="color: #ff00fe; font-family: inherit;"><u></u> <u></u></span></p></td></tr><tr><td style="border-bottom: none; border-left: 1pt solid windowtext; border-right: 1pt solid windowtext; border-top: none; margin: 0px; padding: 0cm 5.4pt;" valign="top"><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0px;"><span style="color: #ff00fe; font-family: inherit;">a<u></u><u></u></span></p></td><td style="border-bottom: none; border-image: initial; border-left: none; border-right: 1pt solid windowtext; border-top: none; margin: 0px; padding: 0cm 5.4pt;" valign="top"><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0px;"><span style="color: #ff00fe; font-family: inherit;">b<u></u><u></u></span></p></td><td style="border-bottom: none; border-image: initial; border-left: none; border-right: 1pt solid windowtext; border-top: none; margin: 0px; padding: 0cm 5.4pt;" valign="top"><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0px;"><span style="color: #ff00fe; font-family: inherit;">determiner<u></u><u></u></span></p></td><td style="border-bottom: none; border-image: initial; border-left: none; border-right: 1pt solid windowtext; border-top: none; margin: 0px; padding: 0cm 5.4pt;" valign="top"><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0px;"><span style="color: #ff00fe; font-family: inherit;">noun<u></u><u></u></span></p></td><td style="border-bottom: 1pt solid windowtext; border-image: initial; border-left: none; border-right: none; border-top: none; margin: 0px; padding: 0cm 5.4pt;" valign="top"><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0px;"><span style="color: #ff00fe; font-family: inherit;">adv gp<u></u><u></u></span></p></td><td style="border-bottom: 1pt solid windowtext; border-left: none; border-right: 1pt solid windowtext; border-top: none; margin: 0px; padding: 0cm 5.4pt;" valign="top"><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0px;"><span style="color: #ff00fe; font-family: inherit;"><u></u> <u></u></span></p></td></tr><tr><td style="border-bottom: 1pt solid windowtext; border-image: initial; border-left: 1pt solid windowtext; border-right: 1pt solid windowtext; border-top: none; margin: 0px; padding: 0cm 5.4pt;" valign="top"><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0px;"><span style="color: #ff00fe; font-family: inherit;"><u></u> <u></u></span></p></td><td style="border-bottom: 1pt solid windowtext; border-left: none; border-right: 1pt solid windowtext; border-top: none; margin: 0px; padding: 0cm 5.4pt;" valign="top"><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0px;"><span style="color: #ff00fe; font-family: inherit;"><u></u> <u></u></span></p></td><td style="border-bottom: 1pt solid windowtext; border-left: none; border-right: 1pt solid windowtext; border-top: none; margin: 0px; padding: 0cm 5.4pt;" valign="top"><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0px;"><span style="color: #ff00fe; font-family: inherit;"><u></u> <u></u></span></p></td><td style="border-bottom: 1pt solid windowtext; border-left: none; border-right: 1pt solid windowtext; border-top: none; margin: 0px; padding: 0cm 5.4pt;" valign="top"><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0px;"><span style="color: #ff00fe; font-family: inherit;"><u></u> <u></u></span></p></td><td style="border-bottom: 1pt solid windowtext; border-left: none; border-right: 1pt solid windowtext; border-top: none; margin: 0px; padding: 0cm 5.4pt;" valign="top"><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0px;"><span style="color: #ff00fe; font-family: inherit;">b<u></u><u></u></span></p></td><td style="border-bottom: 1pt solid windowtext; border-left: none; border-right: 1pt solid windowtext; border-top: none; margin: 0px; padding: 0cm 5.4pt;" valign="top"><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0px;"><span style="color: #ff00fe;"><span style="font-family: inherit;">a</span><span style="background-color: transparent;"> </span></span></p></td></tr></tbody></table></blockquote><blockquote><p class="MsoNormal" style="background-color: white; margin: 0px; text-align: justify;"><span style="color: #ff00fe; font-family: inherit;">Here <i>[long ago] </i>specifies which <i>days</i><u></u><u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="background-color: white; margin: 0px; text-align: justify;"><span style="color: #ff00fe; font-family: inherit;"><span><u></u> </span><u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="background-color: white; margin: 0px; text-align: justify;"><span style="font-family: inherit;"><span style="color: #ff00fe;">Focus in English is realised by a subjacency duplex with the structure marker ‘of’,</span><span style="color: #222222;"> </span><span style="color: #800180;">discussed in Martin & Doran 2023.</span><span style="color: #222222;"> </span><span style="color: red;">The Head is more often an embedded nominal group...</span></span><span style="background-color: transparent; color: red;"> </span></p></blockquote><blockquote><p class="MsoNormal" style="background-color: white; margin: 0px; text-align: justify;"><span style="color: red; font-family: inherit;"><u></u><u></u></span></p><table border="1" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" style="background-color: white; border-collapse: collapse; border: none; text-align: justify;"><tbody><tr><td style="border-bottom: 1pt solid windowtext; border-image: initial; border-left: none; border-right: none; border-top: none; margin: 0px; padding: 0cm 5.4pt;" valign="top"><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0px;"><i><span style="color: red; font-family: inherit;">[a example]<u></u><u></u></span></i></p></td><td style="border-bottom: 1pt solid windowtext; border-image: initial; border-left: none; border-right: none; border-top: none; margin: 0px; padding: 0cm 5.4pt;" valign="top"><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0px;"><i><span style="color: red; font-family: inherit;">of<u></u><u></u></span></i></p></td><td style="border-bottom: 1pt solid windowtext; border-image: initial; border-left: none; border-right: none; border-top: none; margin: 0px; padding: 0cm 5.4pt;" valign="top"><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0px;"><i><span style="color: red; font-family: inherit;">those<u></u><u></u></span></i></p></td><td style="border-bottom: 1pt solid windowtext; border-image: initial; border-left: none; border-right: none; border-top: none; margin: 0px; padding: 0cm 5.4pt;" valign="top"><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0px;"><i><span style="color: red; font-family: inherit;">days<u></u><u></u></span></i></p></td><td style="border-bottom: 1pt solid windowtext; border-image: initial; border-left: none; border-right: none; border-top: none; margin: 0px; padding: 0cm 5.4pt;" valign="top"><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0px;"><i><span style="color: red; font-family: inherit;">[[a little while]<u></u><u></u></span></i></p></td><td style="border-bottom: 1pt solid windowtext; border-image: initial; border-left: none; border-right: none; border-top: none; margin: 0px; padding: 0cm 5.4pt;" valign="top"><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0px;"><i><span style="color: red; font-family: inherit;">ago]<u></u><u></u></span></i></p></td></tr><tr><td style="border-bottom: 1pt solid windowtext; border-left: 1pt solid windowtext; border-right: none; border-top: none; margin: 0px; padding: 0cm 5.4pt;" valign="top"><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0px;"><span style="color: red; font-family: inherit;">Focus<u></u><u></u></span></p></td><td style="border-bottom: 1pt solid windowtext; border-left: none; border-right: 1pt solid windowtext; border-top: none; margin: 0px; padding: 0cm 5.4pt;" valign="top"><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0px;"><span style="color: red; font-family: inherit;"><u></u> <u></u></span></p></td><td style="border-bottom: 1pt solid windowtext; border-left: none; border-right: 1pt solid windowtext; border-top: none; margin: 0px; padding: 0cm 5.4pt;" valign="top"><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0px;"><span style="color: red; font-family: inherit;">Deictic<u></u><u></u></span></p></td><td style="border-bottom: 1pt solid windowtext; border-left: none; border-right: 1pt solid windowtext; border-top: none; margin: 0px; padding: 0cm 5.4pt;" valign="top"><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0px;"><span style="color: red; font-family: inherit;">Thing<u></u><u></u></span></p></td><td style="border-bottom: 1pt solid windowtext; border-image: initial; border-left: none; border-right: none; border-top: none; margin: 0px; padding: 0cm 5.4pt;" valign="top"><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0px;"><span style="color: red; font-family: inherit;">Qualifier<u></u><u></u></span></p></td><td style="border-bottom: 1pt solid windowtext; border-left: none; border-right: 1pt solid windowtext; border-top: none; margin: 0px; padding: 0cm 5.4pt;" valign="top"><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0px;"><span style="color: red; font-family: inherit;"><u></u> <u></u></span></p></td></tr><tr><td style="border-bottom: 1pt solid windowtext; border-image: initial; border-left: 1pt solid windowtext; border-right: 1pt solid windowtext; border-top: none; margin: 0px; padding: 0cm 5.4pt;" valign="top"><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0px;"><span style="color: red; font-family: inherit;">a<u></u><u></u></span></p></td><td style="border-bottom: none; border-image: initial; border-left: none; border-right: 1pt solid windowtext; border-top: none; margin: 0px; padding: 0cm 5.4pt;" valign="top"><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0px;"><span style="color: red; font-family: inherit;">b<u></u><u></u></span></p></td><td style="border-bottom: none; border-image: initial; border-left: none; border-right: 1pt solid windowtext; border-top: none; margin: 0px; padding: 0cm 5.4pt;" valign="top"><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0px;"><span style="color: red; font-family: inherit;">demon<u></u><u></u></span></p></td><td style="border-bottom: none; border-image: initial; border-left: none; border-right: 1pt solid windowtext; border-top: none; margin: 0px; padding: 0cm 5.4pt;" valign="top"><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0px;"><span style="color: red; font-family: inherit;">noun<u></u><u></u></span></p></td><td style="border-bottom: 1pt solid windowtext; border-image: initial; border-left: none; border-right: none; border-top: none; margin: 0px; padding: 0cm 5.4pt;" valign="top"><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0px;"><span style="color: red; font-family: inherit;">adv gp<u></u><u></u></span></p></td><td style="border-bottom: 1pt solid windowtext; border-left: none; border-right: 1pt solid windowtext; border-top: none; margin: 0px; padding: 0cm 5.4pt;" valign="top"><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0px;"><span style="color: red; font-family: inherit;"><u></u> <u></u></span></p></td></tr><tr><td style="border-bottom: none; border-left: 1pt solid windowtext; border-right: 1pt solid windowtext; border-top: none; margin: 0px; padding: 0cm 5.4pt;" valign="top"><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0px;"><span style="color: red; font-family: inherit;">nom gp<u></u><u></u></span></p></td><td style="border-bottom: none; border-image: initial; border-left: none; border-right: 1pt solid windowtext; border-top: none; margin: 0px; padding: 0cm 5.4pt;" valign="top"><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0px;"><span style="color: red; font-family: inherit;"><u></u> <u></u></span></p></td><td style="border-bottom: none; border-image: initial; border-left: none; border-right: 1pt solid windowtext; border-top: none; margin: 0px; padding: 0cm 5.4pt;" valign="top"><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0px;"><span style="color: red; font-family: inherit;"><u></u> <u></u></span></p></td><td style="border-bottom: none; border-image: initial; border-left: none; border-right: 1pt solid windowtext; border-top: none; margin: 0px; padding: 0cm 5.4pt;" valign="top"><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0px;"><span style="color: red; font-family: inherit;"><u></u> <u></u></span></p></td><td style="border-bottom: 1pt solid windowtext; border-image: initial; border-left: none; border-right: none; border-top: none; margin: 0px; padding: 0cm 5.4pt;" valign="top"><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0px;"><span style="color: red; font-family: inherit;">b<u></u><u></u></span></p></td><td style="border-bottom: none; border-left: 1pt solid windowtext; border-right: 1pt solid windowtext; border-top: none; margin: 0px; padding: 0cm 5.4pt;" valign="top"><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0px;"><span style="color: red; font-family: inherit;">a<u></u><u></u></span></p></td></tr><tr><td style="border-bottom: 1pt solid windowtext; border-image: initial; border-left: 1pt solid windowtext; border-right: 1pt solid windowtext; border-top: none; margin: 0px; padding: 0cm 5.4pt;" valign="top"><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0px;"><span style="color: red; font-family: inherit;"><u></u> <u></u></span></p></td><td style="border-bottom: 1pt solid windowtext; border-left: none; border-right: 1pt solid windowtext; border-top: none; margin: 0px; padding: 0cm 5.4pt;" valign="top"><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0px;"><span style="color: red; font-family: inherit;"><u></u> <u></u></span></p></td><td style="border-bottom: 1pt solid windowtext; border-left: none; border-right: 1pt solid windowtext; border-top: none; margin: 0px; padding: 0cm 5.4pt;" valign="top"><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0px;"><span style="color: red; font-family: inherit;"><u></u> <u></u></span></p></td><td style="border-bottom: 1pt solid windowtext; border-left: none; border-right: 1pt solid windowtext; border-top: none; margin: 0px; padding: 0cm 5.4pt;" valign="top"><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0px;"><span style="color: red; font-family: inherit;"><u></u> <u></u></span></p></td><td style="border-bottom: 1pt solid windowtext; border-image: initial; border-left: none; border-right: none; border-top: none; margin: 0px; padding: 0cm 5.4pt;" valign="top"><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0px;"><span style="color: red; font-family: inherit;">nom gp<u></u><u></u></span></p></td><td style="border-bottom: 1pt solid windowtext; border-image: initial; border-left: 1pt solid windowtext; border-right: 1pt solid windowtext; border-top: none; margin: 0px; padding: 0cm 5.4pt;" valign="top"><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0px;"><span style="color: red; font-family: inherit;"><u></u> <u></u></span></p></td></tr></tbody></table><p class="MsoNormal" style="background-color: white; color: #222222; margin: 0px; text-align: justify;"><br /></p></blockquote><blockquote><p class="MsoNormal" style="background-color: white; margin: 0px; text-align: justify;"><span style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial; background-repeat: initial; background-size: initial;"><span style="color: #800180; font-family: inherit;">Martin, J. R., & Doran, Y. J. (2023, May). Structure markers: A subjacency duplex analysis. In <i>Language, Context and Text. The Social Semiotics Forum</i> (Vol. 5, No. 1, pp. 16-48</span></span></p></blockquote><p> <span style="background-color: white; color: #222222; font-family: inherit;"> </span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="background-color: white; color: #222222; margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family: inherit;"></span></p><p><b><u>Blogger Comments</u></b>:</p><p style="text-align: justify;"><span style="color: #ff00fe;">[1]</span> To be clear, in this case, Martin's 'Focus' is a rebranding of Halliday's Pre-Deictic (e.g. Halliday & Matthiessen 2014: 394).</p><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: justify;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEgKxtAFIBww_ifKKTv2skysrFjXDv8_SrwBkGnfsQtilA44_ukwBC1s_4HdAhkLhHYYBtZQUsooMEOYH_JkrSS0WkjmygxdcREZ4h8XLVXP0f7H8aElSzyCHrubG-mDv0r0lR63N9tMvC-YuLgN5hRRuhbtObIpKwMyUNoCO6itnY0yUBTOKhGqoQWQJWxi/s415/1.png" style="margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><img border="0" data-original-height="94" data-original-width="415" height="90" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEgKxtAFIBww_ifKKTv2skysrFjXDv8_SrwBkGnfsQtilA44_ukwBC1s_4HdAhkLhHYYBtZQUsooMEOYH_JkrSS0WkjmygxdcREZ4h8XLVXP0f7H8aElSzyCHrubG-mDv0r0lR63N9tMvC-YuLgN5hRRuhbtObIpKwMyUNoCO6itnY0yUBTOKhGqoQWQJWxi/w400-h90/1.png" width="400" /></a></div><p style="text-align: justify;">In SFL Theory, a duplex is a complex of two units related by expansion or projection, where each unit in the complex serves the same function. This is not the case here. On the one hand, the preposition <i>of</i> does not modify the determiner <i>some</i> by expansion or projection, and on the other hand, the determiner <i>some </i>and<i> </i>the preposition <i>of</i> do not serve the same function. While the determiner <i>some </i>serves as a structural element, the preposition <i>of</i> does not. Instead, it functions as a structure marker. Halliday & Matthiessen (2014: 425):</p><p style="text-align: left;"></p><blockquote><p style="text-align: justify;">The exception is prepositional phrases with <i>of</i>, which normally occur only as Postmodifier; the reason is that they are not typical prepositional phrases, because in most of its contexts of use <i>of</i> is functioning not as minor Process/Predicator but rather as a structure marker in the nominal group.</p></blockquote><div style="text-align: justify;"><span style="color: #800180;">[2]</span> For a close examination of Martin & Doran (2023), see the review <a href="https://subjacencyduplex.blogspot.com/" target="_blank">here</a>. Among other things, the authors mistake functions for structures, and so, mistake function markers for structure markers, with the result that most of the paper is concerned with adpositions that serve as function markers, rather than the structure markers they intended to provide a subjacency analysis for. </div><p style="text-align: justify;"><span style="color: red;">[3]</span> To be clear, on the basis of IFG (Halliday ± Matthiessen 1985, 1994, 2004, 2014), this can be analysed as follows:</p><p>(a) ranking nominal group:<br /><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEhQmHXcPDpXuOy1C2OFvYhuWrGPLhc5yiTHXkGe1LXVrm5R82n8C8wTRf3PcvAVIgMU4nTPlN7ebgZPzT1tnFJ58bVX6-uWGSWGJjONbi7xfkPZeMuNNy8thzOCd7KL4ORdcOSUSQIh-3iBABfm3m-VkkAk3RLWq8dDFzPGeGK_UvNuM_LBGYN8k71mxJjQ/s524/1.png" style="text-align: justify;"><img border="0" height="128" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEhQmHXcPDpXuOy1C2OFvYhuWrGPLhc5yiTHXkGe1LXVrm5R82n8C8wTRf3PcvAVIgMU4nTPlN7ebgZPzT1tnFJ58bVX6-uWGSWGJjONbi7xfkPZeMuNNy8thzOCd7KL4ORdcOSUSQIh-3iBABfm3m-VkkAk3RLWq8dDFzPGeGK_UvNuM_LBGYN8k71mxJjQ/w494-h128/1.png" width="494" /></a></p><div style="text-align: justify;">(b) nominal group embedded in ranking nominal group:</div><div style="text-align: justify;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEgXSSBdv0ds65ZWcEJ1F1ahV_CWGhuJL0gHACEhWzp3b2sUY50KxUU-RCqvSkbRcYu8iyoX8b9rAG5_rVCI5GRAlU1tNVGt2yLedn6Vj20pH4LqRa4A5l-00JLWf7fzyYeuzHLn_JYvWfeyXjcY9Ol4go_ZBwGk0B08AfCmX5-7bhdIRpwb69-JLBuGIObs/s324/2.png"><img border="0" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEgXSSBdv0ds65ZWcEJ1F1ahV_CWGhuJL0gHACEhWzp3b2sUY50KxUU-RCqvSkbRcYu8iyoX8b9rAG5_rVCI5GRAlU1tNVGt2yLedn6Vj20pH4LqRa4A5l-00JLWf7fzyYeuzHLn_JYvWfeyXjcY9Ol4go_ZBwGk0B08AfCmX5-7bhdIRpwb69-JLBuGIObs/s320/2.png" /></a></div><div style="text-align: justify;"><br /></div><div style="text-align: justify;">(c) nominal group embedded in nominal group embedded in ranking nominal group:</div><div class="separator" style="clear: both;"><img border="0" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEjhmqDOsOOEz-BR-Cn8uWHUIpTzvZ1r6f8oDc728sSYqlGHRcZn2s0tXJQItIqJKFdJ_2SLJA4sVxVL0Pxc2lfzp9aK0mU78YxJNU77UrXghDiX9B8aiWbm_rXe13EyaMIyjyTNk1XMM9YRr9E5H8stBqKA22InrlVD-tU34LLwf8iO6Q_xuFQZrwTbPwAO/s1600/1.png" /></div><div class="separator" style="clear: both;"><br /></div><div style="text-align: justify;">That is, <i>example of</i> is not a two-unit complex (duplex) realising Focus, and <i>a little while ago</i> is a nominal group realising a Qualifier, not an adverbial group realised by a two-unit complex (duplex).</div><p></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="background-color: white; color: #222222; font-size: small; margin: 0px; text-align: justify;"><span style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial; background-repeat: initial; background-size: initial;"><span style="font-family: inherit;"></span></span></p>Unknownnoreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5665235524238431756.post-81592893586221387272024-02-14T15:30:00.002+11:002024-02-14T15:52:03.623+11:00David Rose Misconstruing Nominal Groups, A Subjacency Duplex, And 'Instantiate'<p><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEhwFggSnmHtFE5HiYQP7VcxwLat8xg1yqK0Pwcs5SDWH4MQ-JvUiYjbe3EVTkCxzwzK-pAlUjaKZuOe5MNNbyFVAEHXoHhN3ROCJYonMrSKuIXS6dZtXHLEyyFAxlhKCvyYBcz83xyLmaHoZBt41LaLzy28h0kuIsN0gewHzu13VF9vyHpV7HIJklwrjFef/s160/drose_small.jpg" style="clear: left; display: inline; float: left; margin-bottom: 1em; margin-right: 1em; text-align: center;"><img border="0" data-original-height="160" data-original-width="120" height="160" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEhwFggSnmHtFE5HiYQP7VcxwLat8xg1yqK0Pwcs5SDWH4MQ-JvUiYjbe3EVTkCxzwzK-pAlUjaKZuOe5MNNbyFVAEHXoHhN3ROCJYonMrSKuIXS6dZtXHLEyyFAxlhKCvyYBcz83xyLmaHoZBt41LaLzy28h0kuIsN0gewHzu13VF9vyHpV7HIJklwrjFef/s1600/drose_small.jpg" width="120" /></a><a href="https://www.freelists.org/post/asflanet/grammar-analysis-only,50" target="_blank">David Rose wrote to asflanet on 11 Feb 2024, at 15:08</a>:</p><blockquote><p class="MsoNormal" style="background-color: white; color: #222222; margin: 0px; text-align: justify;"><span style="font-family: inherit;">Subjacency duplexes are dependency structures that are not recursive (not hypotactic series)<u></u><u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="background-color: white; color: #222222; margin: 0px; text-align: justify;"><span style="font-family: inherit;"><u></u> <u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="background-color: white; color: #222222; margin: 0px; text-align: justify;"><span style="font-family: inherit;">Proportionality first...<u></u><u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="background-color: white; margin: 0px; text-align: justify;"><span style="font-family: inherit;"><span style="color: #800180;">some days ago</span><span style="color: #222222;"> : some of those days long ago ::<u></u><u></u></span></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="background-color: white; margin: 0px; text-align: justify;"><span style="font-family: inherit;"><span style="color: #800180;">adv gp</span><span style="color: #222222;"> : nom gp</span></span><span style="background-color: transparent; color: #222222;"> </span></p></blockquote><blockquote><p class="MsoNormal" style="background-color: white; color: #222222; margin: 0px; text-align: justify;"><span style="font-family: inherit;">Also...<u></u><u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="background-color: white; margin: 0px; text-align: justify;"><span style="font-family: inherit;"><span style="color: #800180;">a little while ago</span><span style="color: #222222;"> : an example of those days a little while ago ::<u></u><u></u></span></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="background-color: white; margin: 0px; text-align: justify;"><span style="font-family: inherit;"><span style="color: #800180;">adv gp</span><span style="color: #222222;"> : nom gp<u></u><u></u></span></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="background-color: white; color: #222222; margin: 0px; text-align: justify;"><span style="font-family: inherit;"><u></u> <u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="background-color: white; color: #222222; margin: 0px; text-align: justify;"><span style="font-family: inherit;">Adverbial group structure is Modifier^Head</span><span style="background-color: transparent;"> </span></p></blockquote><blockquote><p class="MsoNormal" style="background-color: white; color: #222222; margin: 0px; text-align: justify;"><span style="font-family: inherit;"><u></u><u></u></span></p><table border="1" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" style="background-color: white; border-collapse: collapse; border: none; color: #222222; text-align: justify;"><tbody><tr><td style="border-bottom: 1pt solid windowtext; border-image: initial; border-left: none; border-right: none; border-top: none; margin: 0px; padding: 0cm 5.4pt;" valign="top"><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0px;"><i>long<u></u><u></u></i></p></td><td style="border-bottom: 1pt solid windowtext; border-image: initial; border-left: none; border-right: none; border-top: none; margin: 0px; padding: 0cm 5.4pt;" valign="top"><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0px;"><i>ago<u></u><u></u></i></p></td></tr><tr><td style="border-bottom: 1pt solid windowtext; border-image: initial; border-left: 1pt solid windowtext; border-right: 1pt solid windowtext; border-top: none; margin: 0px; padding: 0cm 5.4pt;" valign="top"><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family: inherit;">b<u></u><u></u></span></p></td><td style="border-bottom: 1pt solid windowtext; border-left: none; border-right: 1pt solid windowtext; border-top: none; margin: 0px; padding: 0cm 5.4pt;" valign="top"><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family: inherit;">a</span><span style="background-color: transparent;"> </span></p></td></tr></tbody></table></blockquote><blockquote><p class="MsoNormal" style="background-color: white; margin: 0px; text-align: justify;"><span style="font-family: inherit;"><span style="color: #ff00fe;">This is a subjacency duplex with adverb as Head.</span><span style="color: #222222;"> (</span><span style="color: #3d85c6;"><i>Ago</i> can only instantiate the Head.</span><span style="color: #222222;">)<u></u><u></u></span></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="background-color: white; color: #222222; margin: 0px; text-align: justify;"><span style="font-family: inherit;"><u></u> <u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="background-color: white; margin: 0px; text-align: justify;"><span style="color: red;"><span style="font-family: inherit;">The Modifier can be an embedded nom gp</span><span style="background-color: transparent;"> </span></span></p></blockquote><blockquote><p class="MsoNormal" style="background-color: white; margin: 0px; text-align: justify;"><span style="color: red; font-family: inherit;"><u></u><u></u></span></p><table border="1" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" style="background-color: white; border-collapse: collapse; border: none; text-align: justify;"><tbody><tr><td style="border-bottom: 1pt solid windowtext; border-image: initial; border-left: none; border-right: none; border-top: none; margin: 0px; padding: 0cm 5.4pt;" valign="top"><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0px;"><i><span style="color: red; font-family: inherit;">[a little while]<u></u><u></u></span></i></p></td><td style="border-bottom: 1pt solid windowtext; border-image: initial; border-left: none; border-right: none; border-top: none; margin: 0px; padding: 0cm 5.4pt; width: 28.05pt;" valign="top" width="37"><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0px;"><i><span style="color: red; font-family: inherit;">ago<u></u><u></u></span></i></p></td></tr><tr><td style="border-bottom: 1pt solid windowtext; border-left: 1pt solid windowtext; border-right: none; border-top: none; margin: 0px; padding: 0cm 5.4pt;" valign="top"><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0px;"><span style="color: red; font-family: inherit;">b<u></u><u></u></span></p></td><td style="border-bottom: none; border-left: 1pt solid windowtext; border-right: 1pt solid windowtext; border-top: none; margin: 0px; padding: 0cm 5.4pt;" valign="top"><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0px;"><span style="color: red; font-family: inherit;">a<u></u><u></u></span></p></td></tr><tr><td style="border-bottom: 1pt solid windowtext; border-left: 1pt solid windowtext; border-right: none; border-top: none; margin: 0px; padding: 0cm 5.4pt;" valign="top"><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0px;"><span style="color: red; font-family: inherit;">nom gp<u></u><u></u></span></p></td><td style="border-bottom: 1pt solid windowtext; border-image: initial; border-left: 1pt solid windowtext; border-right: 1pt solid windowtext; border-top: none; margin: 0px; padding: 0cm 5.4pt;" valign="top"><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0px;"><span style="color: red;"><span style="font-family: inherit;"><u></u> </span><span style="background-color: transparent;"> </span></span></p></td></tr></tbody></table></blockquote><blockquote><p class="MsoNormal" style="background-color: white; margin: 0px; text-align: justify;"><span style="font-family: inherit;"><span style="color: red;">Here <i>[a little while]</i> specifies how long <i>ago</i>.</span></span></p></blockquote><p><br /></p><p> <b style="color: #222222;"><u>Blogger Comments</u></b><span style="color: #222222;">:</span></p><p><span style="color: #800180;">[1]</span> To be clear, <span style="text-align: justify;">in SFL Theory, </span>these are nominal groups and cannot be adverbial groups (see <span style="color: red;">[4]</span>).</p><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: justify;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEjkElmN9MPH3YePd9EjZi3aC9FPREwT5xKV1tq9OT9KKmJhw_-Qt8b4ES74n2G3ItWpqzVwaYZdplwR2te9oPRJJSLX6VqNPW2X0UXAT_yxPC7-UOq9MzpSNFK3fuLXNmeYWpuOeOpI85XSQaUrmLMNl4U2TlVHtKAiCEDC0mw7FJngrvs4__QW0sF_m63F/s294/1.png" style="margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><img border="0" data-original-height="194" data-original-width="294" height="211" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEjkElmN9MPH3YePd9EjZi3aC9FPREwT5xKV1tq9OT9KKmJhw_-Qt8b4ES74n2G3ItWpqzVwaYZdplwR2te9oPRJJSLX6VqNPW2X0UXAT_yxPC7-UOq9MzpSNFK3fuLXNmeYWpuOeOpI85XSQaUrmLMNl4U2TlVHtKAiCEDC0mw7FJngrvs4__QW0sF_m63F/w320-h211/1.png" width="320" /></a></div><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: justify;"><br /></div><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: justify;"><span style="color: #ff00fe;">[2]</span> To be clear, even if subjacency duplex were a valid type of structure, this does not satisfy its condition of not being expandable beyond a single modifier, e.g. <i>not so</i> <i>very long ago.</i> In SFL terms, this is simply an <b>adverbial group</b> 'with adverb as Head'. </div><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: justify;"><br /></div><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: justify;"><span style="color: #3d85c6;">[3]</span> This seriously misunderstands 'instantiate'. Instantiation is the relation between potential and instance. The relation here is between a word and its function as Head at group rank, which is <b>realisation</b>.</div><p style="text-align: justify;"><span style="color: red;">[4]</span> To be clear, in SFL Theory, the Premodifier of an adverbial group cannot be an embedded nominal group because it is inconsistent with the characterisation of an adverbial group having no lexical premodification. Halliday & Matthiessen (2014: 419-20):</p><blockquote><div style="text-align: justify;">The adverbial group has an adverb as Head, which may or may not be accompanied by modifying elements. … Premodifiers are grammatical items like not and rather and so; there is no lexical premodification in the adverbial group. … The items serving as Premodifiers are adverbs belonging to one of three types – polarity (not), comparison (more, less; as, so) and intensification.</div></blockquote>Unknownnoreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5665235524238431756.post-45881936587172503832024-02-13T15:00:00.010+11:002024-02-13T15:06:02.567+11:00David Rose On Interstratal Tension And A Structure Not Covered By IFG<p><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEhtY8CMIIVyBaws_MOKx1GXb6pXLKTOlTIkwAzTz-4kYHu87wWkF9dkS3WC02fozusF_V77QmTpC1aOnGpaqz1ntjCi23TnNjmvU39zaEWdEtTKxxIH0ZKSv9Aqwap6isDPyGBywoXvzBjW9glX11M3NH8LsuE8vqhVHVYv6jf_SW2oRa8pgMfPU2T1OfK9/s160/drose_small.jpg" style="clear: left; display: inline; float: left; margin-bottom: 1em; margin-right: 1em; text-align: center;"><img border="0" data-original-height="160" data-original-width="120" height="160" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEhtY8CMIIVyBaws_MOKx1GXb6pXLKTOlTIkwAzTz-4kYHu87wWkF9dkS3WC02fozusF_V77QmTpC1aOnGpaqz1ntjCi23TnNjmvU39zaEWdEtTKxxIH0ZKSv9Aqwap6isDPyGBywoXvzBjW9glX11M3NH8LsuE8vqhVHVYv6jf_SW2oRa8pgMfPU2T1OfK9/s1600/drose_small.jpg" width="120" /></a><a href="https://www.freelists.org/post/asflanet/grammar-analysis-only,47" style="text-align: justify;" target="_blank">David Rose summed up the preceding discussion on asflanet on 11 Feb 2024, at 09:25</a><span style="text-align: justify;">:</span></p><div style="text-align: justify;"></div><blockquote><div style="text-align: justify;"><span style="color: #6aa84f;">Annabelle’s first question</span> was a great illustration. It distilled a complex explanation of the earth’s origin into a process with a couple of circumstances, <span style="color: #3d85c6;">which made us question the simple analysis of Actor, Process, Means and Time.</span> <span style="color: #ff00fe;">This interstratal tension</span> has been a focus of SFL research in recent years, especially Jing Hao’s and Yaegan Doran’s work on science.</div><div style="text-align: justify;"><br /></div><div style="text-align: justify;">Annabelle’s second question then revealed that <span style="color: red;">the Time circumstance had a structure that is not covered in IFG</span>. <span style="color: #800180;">Personally, that made me look more closely at both the example, and what Halliday had to say about its grammatical domain. Alternative suggestions by Rosemary, Chris and Annabelle made me look even harder.</span></div></blockquote><p><br /></p><p><b><u>Blogger Comments</u></b>:</p><p style="text-align: justify;"><span style="color: #6aa84f;">[1]</span> To be clear, <a href="https://www.freelists.org/post/asflanet/grammar-analysis-only" target="_blank">Annabelle's first question</a> was</p><blockquote style="text-align: justify;">I'm keen to hear thoughts on the analysis of this clause:</blockquote><blockquote><blockquote style="text-align: justify;"><span>The earth formed some 4,600 years ago from a vast cloud of gas and dust.</span></blockquote></blockquote><p><span style="color: #3d85c6;">[2]</span> This is misleading, because it is not true. This is the structure of the clause:</p><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: justify;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEj1C46Tb0x6x06AU3DHPpS2yZH2Jfj2CEmK9MrVQLLZ-cUJD0w8VR3HwohsBkjo7z7TbUoXt0j8r03T9Kk8Kuph6a4DFDRBI7dWEZWheuBJ5WTbq9FGPXgnOSzwmsflNEbphszt6ohwK1C-OYn_EgyygcIdA65fmiErt8v8uVGu9jdvtAcCqlMBVtd7KNJk/s640/1.png" style="margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><img border="0" data-original-height="109" data-original-width="640" height="110" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEj1C46Tb0x6x06AU3DHPpS2yZH2Jfj2CEmK9MrVQLLZ-cUJD0w8VR3HwohsBkjo7z7TbUoXt0j8r03T9Kk8Kuph6a4DFDRBI7dWEZWheuBJ5WTbq9FGPXgnOSzwmsflNEbphszt6ohwK1C-OYn_EgyygcIdA65fmiErt8v8uVGu9jdvtAcCqlMBVtd7KNJk/w640-h110/1.png" width="640" /></a></div><div><br /></div><div style="text-align: justify;">Although this analysis was questioned by David Banks, it was done so on the basis of theoretical misunderstandings, as previously demonstrated <a href="https://thoughts-that-cross-my-mind.blogspot.com/2024/02/david-banks-on-effectedaffected.html" target="_blank">here</a>.</div><p style="text-align: justify;"><span style="color: #ff00fe;">[3]</span> This is misleading, because it is not true. There is no "interstratal tension" here. This is a happening figure realised by a material clause, its congruent realisation.</p><p><span style="color: red;">[4]</span> This is misleading, because it is not true. On the principles provided in IFG, this structure is simply a nominal group:</p><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: justify;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEju9oX54IvRFDvygECoCjhjXmHFPcjf23o51mDpnGsrc5JqB9458K4gDHqwuDhsHM1XyjiqO6VyWoGJJ39bDaIvup4KfH1gklTG6yqCadpoJzEbPMNWHvLFTm6GVWwf_o40jJfdsrLTGzDaX75B12TOAIjeSZ4NNFjwtjmuAjULS7S_ihd_UhoShLZS1pU0/s318/1-1.png" style="margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><img border="0" data-original-height="116" data-original-width="318" height="116" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEju9oX54IvRFDvygECoCjhjXmHFPcjf23o51mDpnGsrc5JqB9458K4gDHqwuDhsHM1XyjiqO6VyWoGJJ39bDaIvup4KfH1gklTG6yqCadpoJzEbPMNWHvLFTm6GVWwf_o40jJfdsrLTGzDaX75B12TOAIjeSZ4NNFjwtjmuAjULS7S_ihd_UhoShLZS1pU0/s1600/1-1.png" width="318" /></a></div><p style="text-align: justify;"><span style="color: #800180;">[5]</span> To be clear, Rose did not need to look at all, let alone more closely or even harder. Rosemary provided the IFG interpretation of the structure as a nominal group, and ChRIS provided the evidence that the structure could not possibly be an adverbial group, as Rose would maintain, on the principles provided in IFG.</p>Unknownnoreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5665235524238431756.post-52697875597134361422024-02-09T00:00:00.041+11:002024-02-22T22:14:03.277+11:00Pin Wang's Argument For A Nominal Group Being Adverbial<div style="text-align: justify;"></div><a href="https://www.freelists.org/post/asflanet/grammar-analysis-only,24" target="_blank">Pin Wang wrote to asflanet on 7 Feb 2024, at 21:20</a>:<br /><div style="text-align: justify;"></div><blockquote><div><span style="color: #674ea7;">I agree with David on this one.</span> From above, <span style="color: #800180;">a Qualifier serves to identify an entity, answering which Thing is being talked about.</span></div><div style="text-align: justify;"><br /></div><div style="text-align: justify;">E.g.</div><div style="text-align: justify;">- Which children?</div><div style="text-align: justify;">- The children [in blue hats].</div><div style="text-align: justify;"><br /></div> <div style="text-align: justify;"><span style="color: red;">But not:</span></div><div style="text-align: justify;"><span style="color: red;">- Which years?</span></div><div style="text-align: justify;"><span style="color: red;">- Some 4,600 years [ago].</span></div><div style="text-align: justify;"><br /></div> <div style="text-align: justify;"><span style="color: #ff00fe;">So not a nominal group, but an adverbial group.</span> </div></blockquote><p style="text-align: justify;"><br /></p><p style="text-align: justify;"><u><b>Blogger Comments</b></u>:</p><p style="text-align: justify;"><span style="color: #674ea7;">[1]</span> To be clear, socially, this is one member of Martin's community supporting another.</p><p style="text-align: justify;"><span style="color: #800180;">[2]</span> To be clear, a Qualifier serves to <b><i>characterise</i></b>, not <i><b>identify</b></i>. Its function is <b>experiential</b>, not <b>textual</b>. Halliday & Matthiessen (2014: 382):</p><blockquote><div style="text-align: justify;">… the Qualifier also has the function of characterising the Thing; and again the Deictic the serves to signal that the characteristic in question is defining.</div></blockquote><p style="text-align: justify;"><span style="color: red;">[3]</span> To be clear, viewed 'from above', the meaning that the embedded adverbial group <i>ago </i>expresses is 'time: past'. In this nominal group, it characterises the Thing <i>years</i> as 'in the past', as opposed to 'in the future', the latter expressed by the nominal group <i>some 4,600 years hence</i>.</p><blockquote style="border: none; margin: 0px 0px 0px 40px; padding: 0px; text-align: left;"><span style="text-align: justify;">Which children? children in blue hats</span><br />Which years? years ago.</blockquote><p style="text-align: justify;"><span style="color: #ff00fe;">[4]</span> To be clear, on all the evidence, this is simply a nominal group. But more to the point, it <b><i>cannot</i></b> be an adverbial group, because its premodification is not limited to grammatical items expressing polarity, comparison and intensification. Halliday & Matthiessen (2014: 419-22):</p><div style="text-align: justify;"><blockquote>The adverbial group has an adverb as Head, which may or may not be accompanied by modifying elements. … Premodifiers are <b>grammatical items</b> like <i>not</i> and <i>rather</i> and <i>so</i>; <b>there is no lexical premodification in the adverbial group</b>. … The items serving as Premodifiers are adverbs belonging to one of three types – <b>polarity</b> (<i>not</i>), <b>comparison</b> (<i>more, less; as, so</i>) and <b>intensification</b>.</blockquote></div><div style="text-align: justify;"></div>Unknownnoreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5665235524238431756.post-11484048823308988382024-02-08T12:00:00.011+11:002024-02-22T22:13:02.043+11:00David Rose's Argument For A Nominal Group Being Adverbial<p style="text-align: justify;"></p><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEj_Tb_PQaYDOUneAd6ILk0c25A_ObGQMv7c4C_cyJ84S3m3xfzaTTGf8Mb5-0jApJ9FiHHyp8I7oee6eu4Av51M25FOO57Q42C1N8-5j50wNwSdRicCMsvwVWqiI5R9wgwLVHU-7GZoVf_Ceaq1DPf_PABihl8WpwSPO1u8cldaxAUVYE_GP4DlXPNdRrUk/s160/drose_small.jpg" style="clear: left; float: left; margin-bottom: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><img border="0" data-original-height="160" data-original-width="120" height="160" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEj_Tb_PQaYDOUneAd6ILk0c25A_ObGQMv7c4C_cyJ84S3m3xfzaTTGf8Mb5-0jApJ9FiHHyp8I7oee6eu4Av51M25FOO57Q42C1N8-5j50wNwSdRicCMsvwVWqiI5R9wgwLVHU-7GZoVf_Ceaq1DPf_PABihl8WpwSPO1u8cldaxAUVYE_GP4DlXPNdRrUk/s1600/drose_small.jpg" width="120" /></a></div><a href="https://www.freelists.org/post/asflanet/grammar-analysis-only,20" target="_blank">David Rose wrote to asflanet on 7 Feb 2024, at 19:20</a>:<br /><p></p><blockquote><div style="text-align: justify;">You can still hear MAKH’s 1985 IFG wording here (emphases his)...</div><blockquote><div style="text-align: justify;">6.2.2.2 Qualifier</div><div style="text-align: justify;">What of the element which <b><i>follows</i></b> the Thing? The original example, <i>Look at those two splendid old electric trains with pantographs</i>, ended with the phrase <i>with pantographs</i>; this also is part of the nominal group, having a function we shall refer to as Qualifier.</div><div style="text-align: justify;">Unlike the elements that precede the Thing, which are words (or sometimes word complexes, like <i>two hundred, very big;</i> see Section 6.3.2), what follows the Thing is either</div><div style="text-align: justify;">a phrase or a clause.</div><div style="text-align: justify;">... With only <span style="color: #6aa84f;">rare exceptions</span>, all Qualifiers are <b>rankshifted</b>.</div><div style="text-align: justify;">... Like the other, ‘ranking’ (i.e. non-embedded) elements of the nominal group, the Qualifier also has the function of characterising the Thing; and again the Deictic <i>the</i> serves to signal that the characteristic in question is defining.</div></blockquote><div style="text-align: justify;"><span style="color: red;">In <i>some 4,600 years ago</i>, it’s not the adverb <i>ago</i> that is rankshifted, but the nominal group <i>some 4,600 years</i>. The adverb <i>ago</i> doesn’t ‘characterise’ or define the Thing <i>years</i>. Rather <i>some 4,600 years</i> specifies ‘how long ago’.</span></div><div style="text-align: justify;"><br /></div><div style="text-align: justify;"><span style="color: #ff00fe;">This is brought out by proportionalities like...</span></div><div style="text-align: justify;"><span style="color: #ff00fe;">how long ago : how far away ::</span></div><div style="text-align: justify;"><span style="color: #ff00fe;">very long ago : so far away ::</span></div><div style="text-align: justify;"><span style="color: #ff00fe;">some 4,600 years ago : about 4,600 miles away</span></div></blockquote><p></p> <div><br /></div><b><u>Blogger Comments</u></b>:<div><br /></div><div><span style="color: #6aa84f;">[1]</span> To be clear, there are many common examples of Qualifiers that are not rankshifted. For example:</div><div><ul style="text-align: left;"><li>the shortest distance <u>possible</u></li><li>the most ludicrous hypothesis <u>imaginable</u></li><li>the time <u>available</u></li><li>the truth <u>unvarnished</u></li><li>a people <u>abandoned</u></li><li>life <u>everlasting</u></li><li>something <u>unexpected</u></li><li>anything <u>unusual</u></li></ul><div>In any case, the adverbial group <i>ago</i> is rank-shifted, to the rank of word, since it serves as an element of nominal group structure.</div></div><div><span style="color: red;"><br /></span></div><div style="text-align: justify;"><span style="color: red;">[2]</span> To be clear, <i>4,600 years</i> is not rankshifted. The adverbial group <i>ago </i>serves as Qualifier in the nominal group because it characterises the Thing <i>years</i> as 'time: past', in contradistinction to the adverbial group <i>hence</i>, which would characterise the Thing <i>years</i> as 'time: future'.</div><div style="text-align: justify;"><br /></div><div style="text-align: justify;">On the other hand, unlike the constituents of a genuine adverbial group, the words <i>4,600 years</i> are not adverbs of polarity, comparison or intensification that serve as premodifiers of <i>ago</i>. Halliday & Matthiessen (2014: 419-22) explain:</div><div style="text-align: justify;"><blockquote>The adverbial group has an adverb as Head, which may or may not be accompanied by modifying elements. … Premodifiers are <b>grammatical items</b> like <i>not</i> and <i>rather</i> and <i>so</i>; <b>there is no lexical premodification in the adverbial group</b>. … The items serving as Premodifiers are <b>adverbs</b> belonging to one of three types – <b>polarity</b> (<i>not</i>), <b>comparison</b> (<i>more, less; as, so</i>) and <b>intensification</b>.</blockquote><p><span style="color: #ff00fe;">[3]</span> To be clear, the first two lines satisfy the conditions of being adverbial groups, since each features an adverb as Head premodified by adverbs of intensification. The last line, however, does not satisfy these conditions, and simply shows nominal groups with a temporal Qualifier, as previously explained. A single form,<i> ago</i> or <i>away</i>, is insufficient evidence of a common function structure. A structure is the relation among functional elements.</p></div>Unknownnoreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5665235524238431756.post-4307138617372335032024-02-07T18:00:00.006+11:002024-02-08T17:47:54.719+11:00David Rose Misconstruing Nominal Groups As Adverbial Groups<p></p><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEjAfM4K-jZJYRMtZO2Ztxhztu1Y09LFI7t4Y9K_8ZFX7qd9IVrdWaE7EB_POUNWWQ8Q2E43qyGOOq3FkmM3eTaFZ983l1XmWJFzhiDFlQPrnS6GXunrEFnFxLICUUY2mbettEKGTqu_ZWaSboKwnouDSvdAgiSOgxYG7WWm3k9k5AW6vh6YFqlzE-cYBRSq/s160/drose_small.jpg" style="clear: left; float: left; margin-bottom: 1em; margin-right: 1em; text-align: justify;"><img border="0" data-original-height="160" data-original-width="120" height="160" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEjAfM4K-jZJYRMtZO2Ztxhztu1Y09LFI7t4Y9K_8ZFX7qd9IVrdWaE7EB_POUNWWQ8Q2E43qyGOOq3FkmM3eTaFZ983l1XmWJFzhiDFlQPrnS6GXunrEFnFxLICUUY2mbettEKGTqu_ZWaSboKwnouDSvdAgiSOgxYG7WWm3k9k5AW6vh6YFqlzE-cYBRSq/s1600/drose_small.jpg" width="120" /></a></div><div style="text-align: justify;"><a href="https://www.freelists.org/post/asflanet/grammar-analysis-only,13" target="_blank">David Rose wrote to asflanet on 6 Feb 2024, at 22:52</a>:</div><p></p><blockquote><div style="text-align: justify;"><span style="color: #ff00fe;">some 4,600 years ago</span> : Time ::</div><div style="text-align: justify;"><span style="color: #ff00fe;">about 4,600 miles away</span> : Place</div><div style="text-align: justify;">(<span style="color: #ff00fe;">adverbial gps</span>)</div></blockquote><blockquote><p style="text-align: justify;"><span style="color: red;">But what’s the group structure? Maybe...</span></p></blockquote><div><table border="1" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" style="background-color: white; border-collapse: collapse; border: none; color: #222222; font-family: Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: small; text-align: justify;"><tbody><tr><td style="border: 1pt solid windowtext; margin: 0px; padding: 0cm 5.4pt; width: 42.15pt;" valign="top" width="56"><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0px;"><span style="color: red;"><span>some</span><span style="font-family: Symbol;"><u></u><u></u></span></span></p></td><td style="border-bottom: 1pt solid windowtext; border-image: initial; border-left: none; border-right: 1pt solid windowtext; border-top: 1pt solid windowtext; margin: 0px; padding: 0cm 5.4pt; width: 39.85pt;" valign="top" width="53"><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0px;"><span style="color: red;"><span>4,600</span><span style="font-family: Symbol;"><u></u><u></u></span></span></p></td><td style="border-bottom: 1pt solid windowtext; border-image: initial; border-left: none; border-right: 1pt solid windowtext; border-top: 1pt solid windowtext; margin: 0px; padding: 0cm 5.4pt; width: 38.8pt;" valign="top" width="52"><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0px;"><span style="color: red;"><span>years</span><span style="font-family: Symbol;"><u></u><u></u></span></span></p></td><td style="border-bottom: 1pt solid windowtext; border-image: initial; border-left: none; border-right: 1pt solid windowtext; border-top: 1pt solid windowtext; margin: 0px; padding: 0cm 5.4pt; width: 29.3pt;" valign="top" width="39"><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0px;"><span style="color: red;">ago<u></u><u></u></span></p></td></tr><tr><td style="border-bottom: 1pt solid windowtext; border-left: 1pt solid windowtext; border-right: none; border-top: none; margin: 0px; padding: 0cm 5.4pt; width: 42.15pt;" valign="top" width="56"><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0px;"><span style="color: red; font-family: Symbol;">b<u></u><u></u></span></p></td><td style="border-bottom: 1pt solid windowtext; border-image: initial; border-left: none; border-right: none; border-top: none; margin: 0px; padding: 0cm 5.4pt; width: 39.85pt;" valign="top" width="53"><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0px;"><span style="color: red; font-family: Symbol;"><u></u> <u></u></span></p></td><td style="border-bottom: 1pt solid windowtext; border-left: none; border-right: 1pt solid windowtext; border-top: none; margin: 0px; padding: 0cm 5.4pt; width: 38.8pt;" valign="top" width="52"><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0px;"><span style="color: red; font-family: Symbol;"><u></u> <u></u></span></p></td><td style="border-bottom: none; border-image: initial; border-left: none; border-right: 1pt solid windowtext; border-top: none; margin: 0px; padding: 0cm 5.4pt; width: 29.3pt;" valign="top" width="39"><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0px;"><span style="color: red; font-family: Symbol;">a<u></u><u></u></span></p></td></tr><tr><td style="border-bottom: 1pt solid windowtext; border-left: 1pt solid windowtext; border-right: none; border-top: none; margin: 0px; padding: 0cm 5.4pt; width: 42.15pt;" valign="top" width="56"><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0px;"><span style="color: red;">Num<u></u><u></u></span></p></td><td style="border-bottom: 1pt solid windowtext; border-left: none; border-right: 1pt solid windowtext; border-top: none; margin: 0px; padding: 0cm 5.4pt; width: 39.85pt;" valign="top" width="53"><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0px;"><span style="color: red;"><u></u> <u></u></span></p></td><td style="border-bottom: none; border-image: initial; border-left: none; border-right: 1pt solid windowtext; border-top: none; margin: 0px; padding: 0cm 5.4pt; width: 38.8pt;" valign="top" width="52"><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0px;"><span style="color: red;">Thing<u></u><u></u></span></p></td><td style="border-bottom: none; border-image: initial; border-left: none; border-right: 1pt solid windowtext; border-top: none; margin: 0px; padding: 0cm 5.4pt; width: 29.3pt;" valign="top" width="39"><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0px;"><span style="color: red;"><u></u> <u></u></span></p></td></tr><tr><td style="border-bottom: 1pt solid windowtext; border-image: initial; border-left: 1pt solid windowtext; border-right: 1pt solid windowtext; border-top: none; margin: 0px; padding: 0cm 5.4pt; width: 42.15pt;" valign="top" width="56"><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0px;"><span style="color: red;"><span style="font-family: Symbol;">b</span><span><u></u><u></u></span></span></p></td><td style="border-bottom: 1pt solid windowtext; border-left: none; border-right: 1pt solid windowtext; border-top: none; margin: 0px; padding: 0cm 5.4pt; width: 39.85pt;" valign="top" width="53"><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0px;"><span style="color: red;"><span style="font-family: Symbol;">a</span><span><u></u><u></u></span></span></p></td><td style="border-bottom: 1pt solid windowtext; border-left: none; border-right: 1pt solid windowtext; border-top: none; margin: 0px; padding: 0cm 5.4pt; width: 38.8pt;" valign="top" width="52"><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0px;"><span style="color: red;"><u></u> <u></u></span></p></td><td style="border-bottom: 1pt solid windowtext; border-left: none; border-right: 1pt solid windowtext; border-top: none; margin: 0px; padding: 0cm 5.4pt; width: 29.3pt;" valign="top" width="39"><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0px;"><span><span style="color: red;"><u></u> </span><span style="color: black;"><u></u></span></span></p></td></tr></tbody></table><div style="text-align: justify;"><br /></div><p class="MsoNormal" style="background-color: white; color: #222222; font-family: Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: small; margin: 0px; text-align: justify;"><span style="background-color: transparent;"><br /></span></p><div style="text-align: justify;"><a href="https://www.freelists.org/post/asflanet/grammar-analysis-only,15" target="_blank">and then again on 7 Feb 2024, 08:25</a>:</div><blockquote><div style="text-align: justify;"><span>Is it the nom gp serving as Premodifier that makes them look like nom gps?</span></div><div style="text-align: justify;"><span>Here with just adverbs...</span></div><i><div style="text-align: justify;"><i><span>Long ago and so far away....</span></i></div></i></blockquote><table border="1" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" style="background-color: white; border-collapse: collapse; border: none; color: #222222; font-family: Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: small; text-align: justify;"><tbody><tr><td style="border: 1pt solid windowtext; margin: 0px; padding: 0cm 5.4pt; width: 42.15pt;" valign="top" width="56"><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0px;"><span style="color: black;">long<u></u><u></u></span></p></td><td style="border-bottom: 1pt solid windowtext; border-image: initial; border-left: none; border-right: 1pt solid windowtext; border-top: 1pt solid windowtext; margin: 0px; padding: 0cm 5.4pt; width: 29.6pt;" valign="top" width="39"><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0px;"><span style="color: black;"><span>ago</span><span><u></u><u></u></span></span></p></td><td style="border-bottom: 1pt solid windowtext; border-image: initial; border-left: none; border-right: 1pt solid windowtext; border-top: 1pt solid windowtext; margin: 0px; padding: 0cm 5.4pt; width: 34.2pt;" valign="top" width="46"><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0px;"><span style="color: black;"><span>and</span><span><u></u><u></u></span></span></p></td><td style="border-bottom: 1pt solid windowtext; border-image: initial; border-left: none; border-right: 1pt solid windowtext; border-top: 1pt solid windowtext; margin: 0px; padding: 0cm 5.4pt; width: 42.5pt;" valign="top" width="57"><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0px;"><span style="color: black;"><span>so</span><span><u></u><u></u></span></span></p></td><td style="border-bottom: 1pt solid windowtext; border-image: initial; border-left: none; border-right: 1pt solid windowtext; border-top: 1pt solid windowtext; margin: 0px; padding: 0cm 5.4pt; width: 1cm;" valign="top" width="38"><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0px;"><span style="color: black;"><span>far</span><span><u></u><u></u></span></span></p></td><td style="border-bottom: 1pt solid windowtext; border-image: initial; border-left: none; border-right: 1pt solid windowtext; border-top: 1pt solid windowtext; margin: 0px; padding: 0cm 5.4pt; width: 35.45pt;" valign="top" width="47"><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0px;"><span style="color: black;"><span>away</span><span><u></u><u></u></span></span></p></td></tr><tr><td style="border-bottom: 1pt solid windowtext; border-left: 1pt solid windowtext; border-right: none; border-top: none; margin: 0px; padding: 0cm 5.4pt; width: 42.15pt;" valign="top" width="56"><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0px;"><span style="color: black;">Time<u></u><u></u></span></p></td><td style="border-bottom: 1pt solid windowtext; border-left: none; border-right: 1pt solid windowtext; border-top: none; margin: 0px; padding: 0cm 5.4pt; width: 29.6pt;" valign="top" width="39"><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0px;"><span style="color: black;"><u></u> <u></u></span></p></td><td style="border-bottom: none; border-image: initial; border-left: none; border-right: 1pt solid windowtext; border-top: none; margin: 0px; padding: 0cm 5.4pt; width: 34.2pt;" valign="top" width="46"><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0px;"><span style="color: black;"><u></u> <u></u></span></p></td><td style="border-bottom: 1pt solid windowtext; border-image: initial; border-left: none; border-right: none; border-top: none; margin: 0px; padding: 0cm 5.4pt; width: 42.5pt;" valign="top" width="57"><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0px;"><span style="color: black;">Place<u></u><u></u></span></p></td><td style="border-bottom: 1pt solid windowtext; border-image: initial; border-left: none; border-right: none; border-top: none; margin: 0px; padding: 0cm 5.4pt; width: 1cm;" valign="top" width="38"><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0px;"><span style="color: black;"><u></u> <u></u></span></p></td><td style="border-bottom: 1pt solid windowtext; border-left: none; border-right: 1pt solid windowtext; border-top: none; margin: 0px; padding: 0cm 5.4pt; width: 35.45pt;" valign="top" width="47"><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0px;"><span style="color: black;"><u></u> <u></u></span></p></td></tr><tr><td style="border-bottom: 1pt solid windowtext; border-left: 1pt solid windowtext; border-right: none; border-top: none; margin: 0px; padding: 0cm 5.4pt; width: 42.15pt;" valign="top" width="56"><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0px;"><span style="color: black;">adv gp<u></u><u></u></span></p></td><td style="border-bottom: 1pt solid windowtext; border-left: none; border-right: 1pt solid windowtext; border-top: none; margin: 0px; padding: 0cm 5.4pt; width: 29.6pt;" valign="top" width="39"><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0px;"><span style="color: black;"><u></u> <u></u></span></p></td><td style="border-bottom: none; border-image: initial; border-left: none; border-right: 1pt solid windowtext; border-top: none; margin: 0px; padding: 0cm 5.4pt; width: 34.2pt;" valign="top" width="46"><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0px;"><span style="color: black;"><u></u> <u></u></span></p></td><td style="border-bottom: 1pt solid windowtext; border-image: initial; border-left: none; border-right: none; border-top: none; margin: 0px; padding: 0cm 5.4pt; width: 42.5pt;" valign="top" width="57"><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0px;"><span style="color: black;">adv gp<u></u><u></u></span></p></td><td style="border-bottom: 1pt solid windowtext; border-image: initial; border-left: none; border-right: none; border-top: none; margin: 0px; padding: 0cm 5.4pt; width: 1cm;" valign="top" width="38"><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0px;"><span style="color: black;"><u></u> <u></u></span></p></td><td style="border-bottom: 1pt solid windowtext; border-left: none; border-right: 1pt solid windowtext; border-top: none; margin: 0px; padding: 0cm 5.4pt; width: 35.45pt;" valign="top" width="47"><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0px;"><span style="color: black;"><u></u> <u></u></span></p></td></tr><tr><td style="border-bottom: 1pt solid windowtext; border-image: initial; border-left: 1pt solid windowtext; border-right: 1pt solid windowtext; border-top: none; margin: 0px; padding: 0cm 5.4pt; width: 42.15pt;" valign="top" width="56"><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0px;"><span style="color: black; font-family: Symbol;">b<u></u><u></u></span></p></td><td style="border-bottom: 1pt solid windowtext; border-left: none; border-right: 1pt solid windowtext; border-top: none; margin: 0px; padding: 0cm 5.4pt; width: 29.6pt;" valign="top" width="39"><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0px;"><span style="color: black; font-family: Symbol;">a<u></u><u></u></span></p></td><td style="border-bottom: none; border-image: initial; border-left: none; border-right: 1pt solid windowtext; border-top: none; margin: 0px; padding: 0cm 5.4pt; width: 34.2pt;" valign="top" width="46"><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0px;"><span style="color: black; font-family: Symbol;"><u></u> <u></u></span></p></td><td style="border-bottom: 1pt solid windowtext; border-image: initial; border-left: none; border-right: none; border-top: none; margin: 0px; padding: 0cm 5.4pt; width: 42.5pt;" valign="top" width="57"><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0px;"><span style="color: black; font-family: Symbol;">b<u></u><u></u></span></p></td><td style="border-bottom: 1pt solid windowtext; border-left: none; border-right: 1pt solid windowtext; border-top: none; margin: 0px; padding: 0cm 5.4pt; width: 1cm;" valign="top" width="38"><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0px;"><span style="color: black; font-family: Symbol;"><u></u> <u></u></span></p></td><td style="border-bottom: 1pt solid windowtext; border-left: none; border-right: 1pt solid windowtext; border-top: none; margin: 0px; padding: 0cm 5.4pt; width: 35.45pt;" valign="top" width="47"><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0px;"><span style="color: black; font-family: Symbol;">a<u></u><u></u></span></p></td></tr><tr><td style="border-bottom: 1pt solid windowtext; border-image: initial; border-left: 1pt solid windowtext; border-right: 1pt solid windowtext; border-top: none; margin: 0px; padding: 0cm 5.4pt; width: 42.15pt;" valign="top" width="56"><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0px;"><span style="color: black;">adv<u></u><u></u></span></p></td><td style="border-bottom: 1pt solid windowtext; border-left: none; border-right: 1pt solid windowtext; border-top: none; margin: 0px; padding: 0cm 5.4pt; width: 29.6pt;" valign="top" width="39"><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0px;"><span style="color: black;">adv<u></u><u></u></span></p></td><td style="border-bottom: 1pt solid windowtext; border-left: none; border-right: 1pt solid windowtext; border-top: none; margin: 0px; padding: 0cm 5.4pt; width: 34.2pt;" valign="top" width="46"><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0px;"><span style="color: black;"><u></u> <u></u></span></p></td><td style="border-bottom: 1pt solid windowtext; border-left: none; border-right: 1pt solid windowtext; border-top: none; margin: 0px; padding: 0cm 5.4pt; width: 42.5pt;" valign="top" width="57"><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0px;"><span style="color: black;">adv<u></u><u></u></span></p></td><td style="border-bottom: 1pt solid windowtext; border-left: none; border-right: 1pt solid windowtext; border-top: none; margin: 0px; padding: 0cm 5.4pt; width: 1cm;" valign="top" width="38"><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0px;"><span style="color: black;">adv<u></u><u></u></span></p></td><td style="border-bottom: 1pt solid windowtext; border-left: none; border-right: 1pt solid windowtext; border-top: none; margin: 0px; padding: 0cm 5.4pt; width: 35.45pt;" valign="top" width="47"><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0px;"><span><span style="color: black;">adv</span><span style="font-size: 11pt;"><u></u><u></u></span></span></p></td></tr></tbody></table><p class="MsoNormal" style="background-color: white; color: #222222; font-family: Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: small; margin: 0px; text-align: justify;"><span style="font-size: 11pt;"><u></u> <u></u></span></p><blockquote style="text-align: justify;"><span style="color: red;">Here with nom gp as Premodifier</span></blockquote><table border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" style="background-color: white; border-collapse: collapse; font-family: Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: small; text-align: justify;"><tbody><tr><td style="border: 1pt solid windowtext; margin: 0px; padding: 0cm 5.4pt; width: 49.25pt;" valign="top" width="66"><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0px;"><span style="color: red;"><span>some</span><span><u></u><u></u></span></span></p></td><td style="border-bottom: 1pt solid windowtext; border-image: initial; border-left: none; border-right: 1pt solid windowtext; border-top: 1pt solid windowtext; margin: 0px; padding: 0cm 5.4pt; width: 32.75pt;" valign="top" width="44"><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0px;"><span style="color: red;"><span>4,600</span><span><u></u><u></u></span></span></p></td><td style="border-bottom: 1pt solid windowtext; border-image: initial; border-left: none; border-right: 1pt solid windowtext; border-top: 1pt solid windowtext; margin: 0px; padding: 0cm 5.4pt; width: 38.8pt;" valign="top" width="52"><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0px;"><span style="color: red;"><span>years</span><span><u></u><u></u></span></span></p></td><td style="border-bottom: 1pt solid windowtext; border-image: initial; border-left: none; border-right: 1pt solid windowtext; border-top: 1pt solid windowtext; margin: 0px; padding: 0cm 5.4pt; width: 29.3pt;" valign="top" width="39"><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0px;"><span style="color: red;"><span>ago</span><span><u></u><u></u></span></span></p></td></tr><tr><td style="border-bottom: 1pt solid windowtext; border-left: 1pt solid windowtext; border-right: none; border-top: none; margin: 0px; padding: 0cm 5.4pt; width: 49.25pt;" valign="top" width="66"><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0px;"><span style="color: red;">Time<u></u><u></u></span></p></td><td style="border-bottom: 1pt solid windowtext; border-image: initial; border-left: none; border-right: none; border-top: none; margin: 0px; padding: 0cm 5.4pt; width: 32.75pt;" valign="top" width="44"><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0px;"><span style="color: red;"><u></u> <u></u></span></p></td><td style="border-bottom: 1pt solid windowtext; border-image: initial; border-left: none; border-right: none; border-top: none; margin: 0px; padding: 0cm 5.4pt; width: 38.8pt;" valign="top" width="52"><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0px;"><span style="color: red;"><u></u> <u></u></span></p></td><td style="border-bottom: 1pt solid windowtext; border-left: none; border-right: 1pt solid windowtext; border-top: none; margin: 0px; padding: 0cm 5.4pt; width: 29.3pt;" valign="top" width="39"><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0px;"><span style="color: red;"><u></u> <u></u></span></p></td></tr><tr><td style="border-bottom: 1pt solid windowtext; border-left: 1pt solid windowtext; border-right: none; border-top: none; margin: 0px; padding: 0cm 5.4pt; width: 49.25pt;" valign="top" width="66"><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0px;"><span style="color: red;">adv gp<u></u><u></u></span></p></td><td style="border-bottom: 1pt solid windowtext; border-image: initial; border-left: none; border-right: none; border-top: none; margin: 0px; padding: 0cm 5.4pt; width: 32.75pt;" valign="top" width="44"><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0px;"><span style="color: red;"><u></u> <u></u></span></p></td><td style="border-bottom: 1pt solid windowtext; border-image: initial; border-left: none; border-right: none; border-top: none; margin: 0px; padding: 0cm 5.4pt; width: 38.8pt;" valign="top" width="52"><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0px;"><span style="color: red;"><u></u> <u></u></span></p></td><td style="border-bottom: 1pt solid windowtext; border-left: none; border-right: 1pt solid windowtext; border-top: none; margin: 0px; padding: 0cm 5.4pt; width: 29.3pt;" valign="top" width="39"><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0px;"><span style="color: red;"><u></u> <u></u></span></p></td></tr><tr><td style="border-bottom: 1pt solid windowtext; border-left: 1pt solid windowtext; border-right: none; border-top: none; margin: 0px; padding: 0cm 5.4pt; width: 49.25pt;" valign="top" width="66"><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0px;"><span style="color: red;"><span style="font-family: Symbol;">b</span><span><u></u><u></u></span></span></p></td><td style="border-bottom: 1pt solid windowtext; border-image: initial; border-left: none; border-right: none; border-top: none; margin: 0px; padding: 0cm 5.4pt; width: 32.75pt;" valign="top" width="44"><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0px;"><span style="color: red;"><span> </span><span><u></u><u></u></span></span></p></td><td style="border-bottom: 1pt solid windowtext; border-left: none; border-right: 1pt solid windowtext; border-top: none; margin: 0px; padding: 0cm 5.4pt; width: 38.8pt;" valign="top" width="52"><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0px;"><span style="color: red;"><span> </span><span><u></u><u></u></span></span></p></td><td style="border-bottom: none; border-image: initial; border-left: none; border-right: 1pt solid windowtext; border-top: none; margin: 0px; padding: 0cm 5.4pt; width: 29.3pt;" valign="top" width="39"><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0px;"><span style="color: red;"><span style="font-family: Symbol;">a</span><span><u></u><u></u></span></span></p></td></tr><tr><td style="border-bottom: 1pt solid windowtext; border-left: 1pt solid windowtext; border-right: none; border-top: none; margin: 0px; padding: 0cm 5.4pt; width: 49.25pt;" valign="top" width="66"><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0px;"><span style="color: red;">nom gp<u></u><u></u></span></p></td><td style="border-bottom: 1pt solid windowtext; border-image: initial; border-left: none; border-right: none; border-top: none; margin: 0px; padding: 0cm 5.4pt; width: 32.75pt;" valign="top" width="44"><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0px;"><span style="color: red; font-family: Symbol;"><u></u> <u></u></span></p></td><td style="border-bottom: 1pt solid windowtext; border-left: none; border-right: 1pt solid windowtext; border-top: none; margin: 0px; padding: 0cm 5.4pt; width: 38.8pt;" valign="top" width="52"><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0px;"><span style="color: red;"><u></u> <u></u></span></p></td><td style="border-bottom: none; border-image: initial; border-left: none; border-right: 1pt solid windowtext; border-top: none; margin: 0px; padding: 0cm 5.4pt; width: 29.3pt;" valign="top" width="39"><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0px;"><span style="color: red;"> <u></u><u></u></span></p></td></tr><tr><td style="border-bottom: 1pt solid windowtext; border-left: 1pt solid windowtext; border-right: none; border-top: none; margin: 0px; padding: 0cm 5.4pt; width: 49.25pt;" valign="top" width="66"><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0px;"><span style="color: red;"><span>Num</span><span style="font-family: Symbol;"><u></u><u></u></span></span></p></td><td style="border-bottom: 1pt solid windowtext; border-left: none; border-right: 1pt solid windowtext; border-top: none; margin: 0px; padding: 0cm 5.4pt; width: 32.75pt;" valign="top" width="44"><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0px;"><span style="color: red;"><span> </span><span style="font-family: Symbol;"><u></u><u></u></span></span></p></td><td style="border-bottom: none; border-image: initial; border-left: none; border-right: 1pt solid windowtext; border-top: none; margin: 0px; padding: 0cm 5.4pt; width: 38.8pt;" valign="top" width="52"><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0px;"><span style="color: red;">Thing<u></u><u></u></span></p></td><td style="border-bottom: none; border-image: initial; border-left: none; border-right: 1pt solid windowtext; border-top: none; margin: 0px; padding: 0cm 5.4pt; width: 29.3pt;" valign="top" width="39"><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0px;"><span style="color: red;"> <u></u><u></u></span></p></td></tr><tr><td style="border-bottom: 1pt solid windowtext; border-image: initial; border-left: 1pt solid windowtext; border-right: 1pt solid windowtext; border-top: none; margin: 0px; padding: 0cm 5.4pt; width: 49.25pt;" valign="top" width="66"><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0px;"><span style="color: red; font-family: Symbol;">b<u></u><u></u></span></p></td><td style="border-bottom: 1pt solid windowtext; border-left: none; border-right: 1pt solid windowtext; border-top: none; margin: 0px; padding: 0cm 5.4pt; width: 32.75pt;" valign="top" width="44"><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0px;"><span style="color: red; font-family: Symbol;">a<u></u><u></u></span></p></td><td style="border-bottom: 1pt solid windowtext; border-left: none; border-right: 1pt solid windowtext; border-top: none; margin: 0px; padding: 0cm 5.4pt; width: 38.8pt;" valign="top" width="52"><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0px;"><span style="color: red;"> <u></u><u></u></span></p></td><td style="border-bottom: 1pt solid windowtext; border-left: none; border-right: 1pt solid windowtext; border-top: none; margin: 0px; padding: 0cm 5.4pt; width: 29.3pt;" valign="top" width="39"><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0px;"><span><span style="color: red;"><u></u> </span><span style="color: #45818e; font-size: 11pt;"><u></u></span></span></p></td></tr></tbody></table><div style="text-align: justify;"><br /></div><div style="text-align: justify;"><div><a href="https://www.freelists.org/post/asflanet/grammar-analysis-only,17" target="_blank">and then again on 7 Feb 2024, at 13:59</a>:</div><div></div><blockquote style="text-align: left;"><div style="text-align: justify;"><span style="color: #800180;">Interestingly IFG contains many instances with adverb ago/away as Head and nom gp as Premodifier but doesn't attempt to analyse them, even tho they are so common.</span> Of the three types of adv gp Premodifiers listed, they realise [intensification] metaphorically (perhaps one of Whorf’s SAE cryptotypes). E.g.</div><p class="MsoNormal" style="background-color: white; color: #222222; font-family: Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: small; margin: 0px;"><span style="font-size: 11pt;"></span></p></blockquote><p class="MsoNormal" style="background-color: white; color: #222222; font-family: Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: small; margin: 0px; text-align: left;"></p><blockquote><span style="font-size: 11pt;"><span style="background-color: #800180;"><img alt="A close-up of a table
Description automatically generated" class="CToWUd a6T" data-bit="iit" data-image-whitelisted="" height="139" id="m_-6680460030527110384Picture_x0020_7" src="https://mail.google.com/mail/u/0?ui=2&ik=22af9c7828&attid=0.2&permmsgid=msg-f:1790207326363235593&th=18d81814122eb509&view=fimg&fur=ip&sz=s0-l75-ft&attbid=ANGjdJ8h9KEKwJ-SRt-FJt_lmQwa-q2LnlHT6Os2JI8FovZOo5zclUT_12vlIoxcQ_kIXTrjxPvwktfrGxLQfz5A3yu6h842DzApuWV1_wm-ArsIblOIjnuhi0E56M0&disp=emb" style="cursor: pointer; height: 1.4479in; outline: 0px; width: 3.927in;" tabindex="0" width="377" /></span></span></blockquote><p> </p></div><b><div style="text-align: justify;"><b><u>Blogger Comments</u></b>:</div></b><div style="text-align: justify;"><br /></div><div style="text-align: justify;"><span style="color: #ff00fe;">[1]</span> To be clear, these are nominal groups and cannot be adverbial groups. As Halliday & Matthiessen (2014: 419-22) explain:</div><div style="text-align: justify;"><blockquote>The adverbial group has an adverb as Head, which may or may not be accompanied by modifying elements. … Premodifiers are <b>grammatical items</b> like <i>not</i> and <i>rather</i> and <i>so</i>; <b>there is no lexical premodification</b> in the adverbial group. … The items serving as Premodifiers are adverbs belonging to one of three types – polarity (<i>not</i>), comparison (<i>more, less; as, so</i>) and intensification. … Postmodification is of <b>one type only, namely comparison</b>.</blockquote></div><div style="text-align: justify;"><div class="gmail_default" style="background-color: white; color: #674ea7; font-family: verdana, sans-serif; font-size: small; text-align: start;"><blockquote style="border: none; margin: 0px 0px 0px 40px; padding: 0px;"><div class="gmail_default"><img alt="1.png" class="CToWUd a6T" data-bit="iit" data-image-whitelisted="" height="278" src="https://mail.google.com/mail/u/0?ui=2&ik=22af9c7828&attid=0.1&permmsgid=msg-a:r4314470965513573875&th=18d80be6f14efc79&view=fimg&fur=ip&sz=s0-l75-ft&attbid=ANGjdJ_ncLbG8T2LE4vBs9PnadMFVoU3nlLuDBixM-bMh0opgvhca6ZxzBlIGoJoAbE_dSvg4ukQgELYX0BMGQgVpVCGPYTgQ1-UzL1Pbri3mcuUX8rB0tmeG5i6HyQ&disp=emb&realattid=ii_lsazkl5y0" style="cursor: pointer; margin-right: 0px; outline: 0px;" tabindex="0" width="344" /></div></blockquote></div></div><div style="text-align: justify;"><br /></div></div><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: justify;"><br /></div><div style="text-align: justify;"><span style="color: red;">[2]</span> To be clear, applying SFL Theory, the structure of these nominal groups is: </div><div style="text-align: justify;"><br /></div><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: justify;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEgS-5sLF6WfMMaGo3k_ExRcytwSfT9A9GQ85JtP41Z5rivSDBS-BRvdYLT55GkNojaSULAw0GrBc-B-J_q27yptmLPqBmsIMSS0OGSg7ngL7HLQItNQpTqtoYNeGesFZ57WGywa-PFhDitZ_BsEWf1Yp933eBslXY7PEbPtWSmkemi1anBSSBT6POq-Ittv/s343/1.png" style="margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><img border="0" data-original-height="279" data-original-width="343" height="276" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEgS-5sLF6WfMMaGo3k_ExRcytwSfT9A9GQ85JtP41Z5rivSDBS-BRvdYLT55GkNojaSULAw0GrBc-B-J_q27yptmLPqBmsIMSS0OGSg7ngL7HLQItNQpTqtoYNeGesFZ57WGywa-PFhDitZ_BsEWf1Yp933eBslXY7PEbPtWSmkemi1anBSSBT6POq-Ittv/w339-h276/1.png" width="339" /></a></div><span style="color: #800180; text-align: justify;"><div><br /></div>[3]</span><span style="text-align: justify;"> This is misleading because it is untrue. </span><span style="text-align: justify;">Applying SFL Theory, t</span><span style="text-align: justify;">hese examples are simply nominal groups:</span><div><div style="text-align: justify;"><br /></div><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: justify;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEgq8yYY2ordaDjOXbGnZy6xIFS2_kvBeU2a_QKXZP-myXMriJb74KiF8lgkWPi-Dp6dZ9j-J6gRvPRpRf1AodriN7Ayz9jw79Kb5MnPzKX-G9dcXiLIuPEXrte84RM6tsSMHZcyTu4nARuOCS-lp1i3NN_YEB-xOO96hUQlsqituEkGJRCRHBI6J4KciBIM/s293/2.png" style="margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><img border="0" data-original-height="195" data-original-width="293" height="195" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEgq8yYY2ordaDjOXbGnZy6xIFS2_kvBeU2a_QKXZP-myXMriJb74KiF8lgkWPi-Dp6dZ9j-J6gRvPRpRf1AodriN7Ayz9jw79Kb5MnPzKX-G9dcXiLIuPEXrte84RM6tsSMHZcyTu4nARuOCS-lp1i3NN_YEB-xOO96hUQlsqituEkGJRCRHBI6J4KciBIM/s1600/2.png" width="293" /></a></div></div>Unknownnoreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5665235524238431756.post-84903582523885776072024-02-05T20:00:00.003+11:002024-02-05T20:39:53.108+11:00David Banks On Effected/Affected<p style="text-align: justify;"> <a href="https://www.freelists.org/post/asflanet/grammar-analysis-only" target="_blank">After Annabelle Lukin wrote asflanet on 5 Feb 2024 at 11:56</a>:</p><blockquote style="text-align: justify;">I'm keen to hear thoughts on the analysis of this clause:</blockquote><blockquote><blockquote style="text-align: justify;"><span style="color: #6aa84f;">The earth formed some 4,600 years ago from a vast cloud of gas and dust.</span></blockquote></blockquote><div style="text-align: justify;"><br /></div><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEjCAuyJ-hYXxT3rl6cRb1kR25WurgSWH_l4rEybPhAtPP4QP2fr1zHBkkJLsbYSt4brhNwHIm6xwrf2M_Saq4D6sXusaU-Ayw3EHQa-Rg2cLBKQ1NMLpsEH0nbg3njb9wquq7Qo3JoPl7uODOAXf-hcmdydVAfLQ0tnV00xk_7m1CUuWs9iO7dXse40PPUL/s152/davidbanks.jpg" style="clear: left; float: left; margin-bottom: 1em; margin-right: 1em; text-align: justify;"><img border="0" data-original-height="152" data-original-width="114" height="152" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEjCAuyJ-hYXxT3rl6cRb1kR25WurgSWH_l4rEybPhAtPP4QP2fr1zHBkkJLsbYSt4brhNwHIm6xwrf2M_Saq4D6sXusaU-Ayw3EHQa-Rg2cLBKQ1NMLpsEH0nbg3njb9wquq7Qo3JoPl7uODOAXf-hcmdydVAfLQ0tnV00xk_7m1CUuWs9iO7dXse40PPUL/s1600/davidbanks.jpg" width="114" /></a></div><div style="text-align: justify;"><a href="https://www.freelists.org/post/asflanet/grammar-analysis-only,2" target="_blank">David Banks replied on asflanet on 5 Feb 2024, at 19:41</a>:</div><blockquote><div style="text-align: justify;"><span style="color: #ff00fe;">If "formed" is a creative process, and "the earth" is what is created, it can't exist before the process takes place. So it can't be the actor of that process.</span> <span style="color: red;">My memory tells me that somewhere (but I haven't got a refrerence to hand) Halliday talks about an "effected" - the participant created by a process (as opposed to an "affected" - the participant altered by a process)</span>. <span style="color: #800180;">To avoid any confusion, with my (non-anglophone) students I used to use the term "result". I would suggest that "the earth" is effected/result.</span></div></blockquote><p style="text-align: justify;"><br /></p><p style="text-align: justify;"><b><u>Blogger Comments</u></b>:</p><p style="text-align: justify;"><span style="color: #6aa84f;">[1]</span> See the clause analysis <a href="https://sysfling.blogspot.com/2024/02/from-vast-cloud-of-gas-and-dust.html" target="_blank">here</a>.</p><p style="text-align: justify;"><span style="color: #ff00fe;">[2]</span> To be clear, in terms of ergativity, <i>The Earth</i> is the Medium of the Process <i>formed</i>, which, in an intransitive clause is the Actor.</p><p style="text-align: justify;"><span style="color: red;">[3]</span> To be clear, the affectum/effectum distinction applies to <b><i><u>transitive</u></i></b> clauses, not intransitive clauses. Halliday & Matthiessen (1999: 148):</p><p style="text-align: left;"></p><p style="text-align: justify;"></p><blockquote style="text-align: justify;">The subtypes that have been generally recognised in grammar are (1) intransitive/transitive; (2) within intransitive, action/event; and (3) within transitive, effectum/affectum. … The third is the distinction between a Goal that 'exists' prior to the doing of the deed (affectum: <i>Mary threw the ball</i>) and one that is brought into existence by the doing (effectum: <i>Jack built a house</i>). We shall use this distinction, referred to as dispositive/creative, to explain figures of doing in terms of their outcome in other figures.</blockquote><p style="text-align: justify;"><span style="color: #800180;">[4]</span> To be clear, this only creates confusion, since "effected" applies only to transitive clauses, and 'result' is a type of Cause circumstance, not a participant.</p><p style="text-align: justify;">On the other hand, Halliday & Matthiessen (1999: 149) classify subtypes of figures of doing according to <b><i>outcome</i></b>:</p><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: justify;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEhy99_v_nmqU6Bl8-CbcJo1yWuuqfcTKKRPjPr9NXmUV9NZ-BXa85UZiqKYANWxsTP-UkEq2d5vFcu4hxPmYLi2dqhOsHB0ppLu3-xVToZfTJQEqPoF9I2q6CkZXA-um71V8e5nPK0pBOegCP4vyCWJn2KUxyuY5p1aJ0ZNcOQ9Kp7-9lztt2jzgcJU-EUv/s770/1.png" style="margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><img border="0" data-original-height="564" data-original-width="770" height="468" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEhy99_v_nmqU6Bl8-CbcJo1yWuuqfcTKKRPjPr9NXmUV9NZ-BXa85UZiqKYANWxsTP-UkEq2d5vFcu4hxPmYLi2dqhOsHB0ppLu3-xVToZfTJQEqPoF9I2q6CkZXA-um71V8e5nPK0pBOegCP4vyCWJn2KUxyuY5p1aJ0ZNcOQ9Kp7-9lztt2jzgcJU-EUv/w640-h468/1.png" width="640" /></a></div><p></p><p></p><div style="text-align: justify;"></div>Unknownnoreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5665235524238431756.post-24974896981858927212023-12-23T14:30:00.011+11:002023-12-24T10:43:55.547+11:00David Kellogg On Identifying Clauses<div style="text-align: justify;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEgXPeOa5-ukn-xVRtqxqqcI5a4sKJWqVvt2phA6vsDLQtjvfgA_hPBlacIwMY1hcaYbf2SjggP2aN1ubIsIz_f87sQt1HSn6rpgowHw7eadMONu-4dnV29On2_rDtvynrX-77MYx5OQ9OlaXEwkxrFjlYFEXgknzxxLH66ZsQI759sAzEfd0nKSr1D4p2t5/s80/dk.png" style="clear: left; float: left; margin-bottom: 1em; margin-right: 1em; text-align: center;"><img border="0" data-original-height="80" data-original-width="80" height="80" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEgXPeOa5-ukn-xVRtqxqqcI5a4sKJWqVvt2phA6vsDLQtjvfgA_hPBlacIwMY1hcaYbf2SjggP2aN1ubIsIz_f87sQt1HSn6rpgowHw7eadMONu-4dnV29On2_rDtvynrX-77MYx5OQ9OlaXEwkxrFjlYFEXgknzxxLH66ZsQI759sAzEfd0nKSr1D4p2t5/s1600/dk.png" width="80" /></a></div><div style="text-align: justify;"><a href="https://www.freelists.org/post/sys-func/Halliday-On-The-Evolution-Of-Semiotic-Complexity,9" target="_blank">David Kellogg wrote to sys-func on 23 Dec 2023, at 12:24</a>:</div><div style="text-align: justify;"></div><blockquote><div style="text-align: justify;">I am not sure if "typical" structures are the object of interest here: after all we are talking about verbal art. But even in ordinary life, I'm quite wary of making statements about "canonical" order without any corpus evidence.</div><div style="text-align: justify;"><br /></div><div style="text-align: justify;">For example, what about questions? Consider:</div><div style="text-align: justify;"><br /></div><div style="text-align: justify;">a) "What is your name?"</div><div style="text-align: justify;">b) "What, after all, are names?"</div><div style="text-align: justify;"><br /></div><div style="text-align: justify;">You can see that in a) the order is Token Value, <span style="color: red;">but the Token doesn't map onto the Subject but rather onto the Complement</span>.</div><div style="text-align: justify;"><br /></div><div style="text-align: justify;">In b), which is surely much less common in life if more typical of verbal art, <span style="color: #ff00fe;">the order is Value-Token and the Subject does map onto the Token</span>…</div></blockquote><div style="text-align: justify;"></div><p><br /></p><p><b><u>Blogger Comments</u></b>:</p><p style="text-align: justify;"><span style="color: red;">[1]</span> This is misleading, because it is not true. Token <b><i>does</i></b> map onto Subject, and Value onto Complement. Cf. <i>What serves as your name?</i> The information that the clause demands is the decoding of a Token by reference to a Value.</p><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: justify;"><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: justify;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEi8ChfPWOTEhzIos48RdifEomobtnWv10x_loIugwsLMHgAHyn5VBCBneLdnEHl_mfcVXGfLz_99H4QYd0DrvnwxCs2ZhHhYuMllaR2mi93jTp2o5gmo74i3IHK9LAuyeBPqD6yznM9gCp3okaO6it_itlxn_xuCctyISlhHyC_TGxcfVUiuFwwzGxpQnUA/s325/1.png" imageanchor="1" style="margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><img border="0" data-original-height="77" data-original-width="325" height="76" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEi8ChfPWOTEhzIos48RdifEomobtnWv10x_loIugwsLMHgAHyn5VBCBneLdnEHl_mfcVXGfLz_99H4QYd0DrvnwxCs2ZhHhYuMllaR2mi93jTp2o5gmo74i3IHK9LAuyeBPqD6yznM9gCp3okaO6it_itlxn_xuCctyISlhHyC_TGxcfVUiuFwwzGxpQnUA/s320/1.png" width="320" /></a></div><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: justify;"><br /></div></div><div style="text-align: justify;"><span style="color: #ff00fe;">[2]</span> To be clear, the sequence is Value^Token because the sequence is Complement^Subject. The information that the clause demands is the encoding of a Value by reference to a Token.</div><div>. <div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: justify;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEhJnJZg87_BXLxE30rjqRilBDBfylBbmU8vzBWpmuwzdh-jyw8AUGVKP-1MvzKBFYsEhDfWryDndFdbKp5hq9nFUoFhyphenhyphenBRrs_c451KO1HwBvPwqu7h-F95ayebCjleqGtR7UPszyr2iXCRV9XcvVgfnkaiMZeBj0B6AUedE39smOEYAH8enkfHu-IVbzlSC/s408/2.png" imageanchor="1" style="margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><img border="0" data-original-height="73" data-original-width="408" height="71" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEhJnJZg87_BXLxE30rjqRilBDBfylBbmU8vzBWpmuwzdh-jyw8AUGVKP-1MvzKBFYsEhDfWryDndFdbKp5hq9nFUoFhyphenhyphenBRrs_c451KO1HwBvPwqu7h-F95ayebCjleqGtR7UPszyr2iXCRV9XcvVgfnkaiMZeBj0B6AUedE39smOEYAH8enkfHu-IVbzlSC/w400-h71/2.png" width="400" /></a></div><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: justify;"><br /></div><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: justify;">Halliday & Matthiessen (2014: 180):</div><blockquote><p style="text-align: left;"></p><div style="text-align: justify;">In other words, ‘identifying’ clauses select for voice; they have an ‘operative’ and a ‘receptive’ variant. The difference is entirely systematic, once we recognise the structure of Token and Value: <b>the ‘operative’ voice is the one in which the Subject is also the Token</b> (just as, in a ‘material’ clause, the ‘operative’ is the variant in which the Subject is also the Actor. The most important difference is that the typical verb of the ‘identifying’ clauses, namely <i>be</i>, has no ‘passive’ form; so clauses like <i>the villain is me</i> and <i>I am the ugly one</i> do not look like ‘receptive’ clauses. But they are. This appears clearly when we substitute a different verb, one which has a ‘passive’ form, as in <i>the villain is played by me</i>.</div><p></p></blockquote></div>Unknownnoreply@blogger.com2tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5665235524238431756.post-69061313194876407042023-12-22T13:30:00.008+11:002024-01-06T07:22:21.893+11:00David Kellogg On "Bottom-Up" Realisation<p style="text-align: justify;"><a href="https://www.freelists.org/post/sys-func/R-Re-R-Re-R-Re-R-Re-Halliday-On-The-Evolution-Of-Semiotic-Complexity,5" target="_blank">After ChRIS CLÉiRIGh wrote to sys-func on 21 December 2023 at 10:56</a>:</p><div style="text-align: justify;"></div><blockquote><div style="text-align: justify;">The reason why Halliday would not even have meant</div><div style="text-align: justify;"></div><blockquote><div style="text-align: justify;">'wording-realized-as-meanings' or</div><div style="text-align: justify;">'sounding-realized-as-wording'</div></blockquote><div style="text-align: justify;"></div><div style="text-align: justify;">is that both are self-contradictions. These are agnate with:</div><div style="text-align: justify;"></div><blockquote><div style="text-align: justify;">meaning realises wording</div><div style="text-align: justify;">wording realises sounding</div></blockquote><div style="text-align: justify;"></div><div style="text-align: justify;">which are identifying clauses: Token^Process^Value.</div><div style="text-align: justify;"><br /></div><div style="text-align: justify;">In the first clause, the higher level of symbolic abstraction (meaning) is misconstrued as the lower level of symbolic abstraction (Token), and the lower level of symbolic abstraction (wording) is misconstrued as the higher level of symbolic abstraction (Value).</div><div style="text-align: justify;"><br /></div><div style="text-align: justify;">Likewise, in the second clause, the higher level of symbolic abstraction (wording) is misconstrued as the lower level of symbolic abstraction (Token), and the lower level of symbolic abstraction (sounding) is misconstrued as the higher level of symbolic abstraction (Value).</div><div style="text-align: justify;"><br /></div><div style="text-align: justify;">This is 'theory turned back on itself'.</div></blockquote><p style="text-align: justify;"> </p><p></p><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEjQpYnSHvv1OVbX_dn5v4DrJB6ExiCsClGgUeeOxN_kjhiGDPd7H1YP68Z9w_O53lq3_BikIk03J-JNWhhDMq0xip-4KQSPOF_swxuY6BmUILtpix4nw4tBn7HTYS4Lg8_zTG1h9y9b-izIvje-_P9yXzpNMuoGLOdSm8eNwkIVcze5IWYvJPb_y9csMinx/s80/dk.png" style="clear: left; float: left; margin-bottom: 1em; margin-right: 1em; text-align: justify;"><img border="0" data-original-height="80" data-original-width="80" height="80" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEjQpYnSHvv1OVbX_dn5v4DrJB6ExiCsClGgUeeOxN_kjhiGDPd7H1YP68Z9w_O53lq3_BikIk03J-JNWhhDMq0xip-4KQSPOF_swxuY6BmUILtpix4nw4tBn7HTYS4Lg8_zTG1h9y9b-izIvje-_P9yXzpNMuoGLOdSm8eNwkIVcze5IWYvJPb_y9csMinx/s1600/dk.png" width="80" /></a></div><div style="text-align: justify;"><a href="https://www.freelists.org/post/sys-func/R-Re-R-Re-R-Re-R-Re-Halliday-On-The-Evolution-Of-Semiotic-Complexity,6" target="_blank">David Kellogg replied on sys-func on 22 December 2023 at 8:55</a>:</div><p></p><blockquote><div style="text-align: justify;">Chris--yes, theory turned back on itself indeed! <span style="color: #45818e;">But theory turned back on itself often produces category errors, like when you drive by a field and instead of seeing two cows you say that there are a bull, a cow, and a bovine couple.</span></div><div style="text-align: justify;"><br /></div><div style="text-align: justify;"><span style="color: #ff00fe;">When you say that "wording-realises-meaning" is agnate with the clause "meaning realizes wording",</span> <span style="color: #ff00fe;">you can ignore the hyphen</span> <span style="color: #674ea7;">and make the clause irreversible, so that wording realizes meaning but meaning does not realize wording.</span></div><div style="text-align: justify;"><br /></div><div style="text-align: justify;"><span style="color: #3d85c6;">That makes it impossible for me to pursue my argument on verbal art, because my argument does depend on the relationship being reversible, and the 'bottom up" realization being dominant in and typical of literature.</span></div><div style="text-align: justify;"><br /></div><div style="text-align: justify;"><span style="color: #a64d79;">But ignoring the hyphen and introducing "Token-Relational Process-Value" also means that your model is no longer neutral between speaking and hearing, as Halliday's is</span> (Halliday remarks on the difficulty and necessity of making it so in the intro to the IFG).</div><div style="text-align: justify;"><br /></div><div style="text-align: justify;"><span style="color: #bf9000;">Worse, you seem to be confusing two dimensions of SFL (stratification and metafunction)</span> which are typically (and rightly) distinct--at least as distinct as the dimensions of instantiation and stratification confused in the Martin model.</div><div style="text-align: justify;"><br /></div><div style="text-align: justify;"><span style="color: #6aa84f;">As I said, I was writing about the theory--not about the way it was worded. That's why I used my own words and said "Halliday pointed out that" instead of "Halliday said".</span> <span style="color: red;">And Halliday does indeed say, in many places, that realization works both ways.</span><span style="color: #800180;"> I think, actually, that he chose the word "realization" for precisely this reason--it can mean both "to make real" and "to become aware" in English, although of course neither of these folk meanings captures the distinction that Halliday is really making.</span></div><div style="text-align: justify;"><br /></div><div style="text-align: justify;">This is one of many places where Halliday's terminology differs from that of Hasan--<span style="color: #990000;">Hasan prefers "actualization" [activation] to talk about bottom up realization.</span> For me, "realization" will do nicely.</div></blockquote><p style="text-align: justify;"><br /></p><p style="text-align: justify;"><b><u>Blogger Comments</u></b>:</p><p style="text-align: justify;"><span style="color: #45818e;">[1]</span> To be clear, Kellogg presents no evidence that 'theory turned back on itself often produces category errors' or that there is a category error in this case. The example of a category error he presents is not a case of theory turned back on itself and does not relate to this post.</p><p style="text-align: justify;">To explain, just as linguistic theory is 'language turned back on itself' is using language to model language, 'theory turned back on itself' is using linguistic theory to model linguistic theory. In this case, it was using identifying clauses to model interstratal realisation.</p><p style="text-align: justify;"><span style="color: #ff00fe;">[2]</span> This misunderstands Cléirigh's post. What Cléirigh said was that Kellogg's 'wordings-realised-as-meanings' is agnate with 'meaning realises wording'. Kellogg's 'wordings-realised-as-meanings' is also agnate with 'Gielgud-played-by-Prospero'. The difference here is only in the subtype of identifying: 'realise' is 'symbol', whereas 'play' is 'role' (Halliday & Matthiessen 2014: 269).</p><p style="text-align: justify;"><span style="color: #674ea7;">[3]</span> This misunderstands identifying clauses. All identifying clauses are reversible. The reverse of <i>wording realises meaning</i> is <i>meaning is realised by wording</i>. In the first, the Token is Subject; in the second, Value is Subject. Moreover it is true that <i>meaning does not realise wording</i>, because this misconstrues Value (<i>meaning</i>) as Token and Token as Value (<i>wording</i>).</p><p style="text-align: justify;"><span style="color: #3d85c6;">[4]</span> To be clear, if an argument depends on 'bottom up' realisation, then the argument is invalidated by the self-contradiction that it construes. The notion of a higher stratum realising a lower stratum misconstrues the higher level of symbolic abstraction, meaning, as the lower level (Token), and the lower level of symbolic abstraction, wording, as the higher level (Value).</p><p style="text-align: justify;">What is reversible is <b><i>not</i></b> the direction of <b>realisation</b> (swapping Token and Value) but the direction of <b>coding</b> (swapping Identified and Identifier). That is, the direction is <b>encoding</b> in the case of Token/Identifier and Value/Identified, and <b>decoding</b> in the case of Token/Identified and Value/Identifier. That is, 'wording realises meaning' can either encode meaning (Identified) by reference to wording (Identifier), or decode wording (Identified) by reference to meaning (Identifier).</p><p style="text-align: justify;"><span style="color: #a64d79;">[5]</span> To be clear, this bare assertion — the logical fallacy <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ipse_dixit" target="_blank">ipse dixit</a> — is misleading because it is untrue. Token-Process-Value simply analyses the interstatal relation 'wording realises meaning'. What could be said to differ for speaker and hearer is not the direction of realisation, but the direction of <b>coding</b>. For a speaker, meaning (Value) is encoded by reference to wording (Token), whereas for a hearer, wording (Token) is decoded by reference to meaning (Value). In both cases, wording is Token and meaning is Value.</p><p style="text-align: justify;"><span style="color: #bf9000;">[6]</span> This is misleading because it is untrue. Cléirigh's post turned theory (identifying relations) back on itself (stratification). The former is a reconstrual of the latter. There is no confusion, because each construal is at a different level of abstraction.</p><p style="text-align: justify;"><span style="color: #6aa84f;">[7]</span> This is misleading. Cléirigh's post was <b><i>not</i></b> about Halliday's <b>wording</b>, but about his <b>meaning</b>:</p><p style="text-align: justify;"></p><blockquote style="text-align: justify;">The reason why Halliday would <b>not even have</b> <b><i>meant</i></b>…</blockquote><p style="text-align: justify;">Moreover, the advantage of quoting a source, instead of reporting it, is that the reader can judge whether or not the writer has understood the source.</p><p style="text-align: justify;"><span style="color: red;">[8]</span> This is misleading because it misrepresents Halliday. For Halliday, realisation "works both ways" in the sense that the identifying process "works both ways". Wording realises meaning, and meaning is realised by wording; and in terms of coding, wording can serve to identify meaning, and meaning can serve to identify wording.</p><p style="text-align: justify;"><span style="color: #800180;">[9]</span> To be clear, Halliday chose the word 'realisation' because 'realise' is an intensive identifying process of the type 'symbol' (Halliday & Matthiessen (2014: 269), which is the relation between levels of symbolic abstraction, which is the relation between strata.</p><p style="text-align: justify;"><span style="color: #990000;">[10]</span> This misleading because it is untrue. Hasan uses 'activation' for "top-down" realisation. Hasan (1995: 164):</p><blockquote><div style="text-align: justify;">But at the same time, the notion of realisation must include the relation of activation especially where the higher strata are concerned. Choices at the stratum of context activate choices at the stratum of semantics, which in their turn activate choices from the systems at the stratum of lexicogrammar.</div></blockquote><p><br /></p><p><u><b>Postscript</b></u>: </p><p style="text-align: justify;">Unsurprisingly, <span style="text-align: justify;">Martin is one source of </span>the self-contradiction of upside-down realisation. <span style="text-align: justify;">Martin (1992: 505)</span><span style="text-align: justify;">:</span></p><blockquote><div style="text-align: justify;">The common ground between the two models lies in the correlation proposed between schematic structure and field, mode and tenor options; for both Martin and Hasan staging redounds with social context.<span face="Arial, Tahoma, Helvetica, FreeSans, sans-serif" style="color: #222222;"><span style="background-color: white; font-size: 13.2px;"> </span></span>Keeping in mind that <span style="color: red;">realisation is not theoretically directional in systemic models</span>, there is nothing substantive in the fact that whereas for Hasan, choices in field, mode and tenor are realised by schematic structure, for Martin <span style="color: red;">schematic structure is realised through these same components of register</span>.</div></blockquote><p></p><div style="text-align: justify;"></div>Unknownnoreply@blogger.com2tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5665235524238431756.post-29118535963390933732023-12-06T00:00:00.015+11:002023-12-11T14:06:50.361+11:00David Kellogg On Viewers Of Cave Paintings Not Requiring Language<blockquote></blockquote><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEiGs97qZv1dUdNe5kzKgalDpVVHhXaZkbXdXYuH-2k-ZS7vQRHVNr-XtYEc64gt_Zho7lzR250HftEwKlcbmArB3Lw0nlMcpgF-1_T2W3_zcxkSveDcvhAQDRCYVP_lL5lWg8PsQSxuFYO4iOAVoVHbcFA1GnbRfWJSjh303CFaSfJ5NzVPM_JbHxExWajJ/s80/dk.png" style="clear: left; float: left; margin-bottom: 1em; margin-right: 1em; text-align: justify;"><img border="0" data-original-height="80" data-original-width="80" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEiGs97qZv1dUdNe5kzKgalDpVVHhXaZkbXdXYuH-2k-ZS7vQRHVNr-XtYEc64gt_Zho7lzR250HftEwKlcbmArB3Lw0nlMcpgF-1_T2W3_zcxkSveDcvhAQDRCYVP_lL5lWg8PsQSxuFYO4iOAVoVHbcFA1GnbRfWJSjh303CFaSfJ5NzVPM_JbHxExWajJ/s16000/dk.png" /></a></div><div style="text-align: justify;"><a href="https://www.freelists.org/post/sys-func/Halliday-on-Language-and-other-Human-Semiotic-Systems,1" target="_blank">David Kellogg wrote to sys-func on 5 Dec 2023, at 00:17</a>:</div><blockquote></blockquote><blockquote><div style="text-align: justify;"><span style="color: #800180;">Implicit in</span> <span style="color: #45818e;">Halliday's last two sentences</span> <span style="color: #800180;">is either:</span></div><div style="text-align: justify;"></div><blockquote><div style="text-align: justify;"><span style="color: #800180;">a) Prelinguistic infants are not engaged in human semiosis, or.</span></div><div style="text-align: justify;"><span style="color: #800180;">b) Language exists from birth.</span></div></blockquote><div style="text-align: justify;"><span style="color: #6aa84f;">It seems to me that both of these are clearly false.</span></div><div style="text-align: justify;"><br /></div><div style="text-align: justify;">Instead of Mondrian, consider the attached cave painting. Imagine that the floor of the cave preserves the footprints of the artists who made this mural.</div></blockquote><blockquote><div style="text-align: justify;"><img border="0" height="480" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEgAVheigaXCbAkcDrERfNuyXzINdJIqC-80ZxQG7Qb3NHSBcBe6UN3-r-Xm1JGrJ7iaK2nmpVVf1Buoz_i3TvL4u3rnibf9oFOWnAOdIoNmo4xTFkD6rjeHu9tpScjWL3RZq2gnEsJdud3gx9Hf8qow4o6pHZwup7YK_bcPozCKGo_1-1C2ZCsEXNQW2_OX/w640-h480/0.jpg" width="640" /></div></blockquote><blockquote><div style="text-align: justify;">1. <span style="color: #3d85c6;">The involuntary meaning of the footprints of the artists who made the mural. This seems no different from the meaning that deer tracks convey to a non-human predator. </span></div></blockquote><blockquote><div style="text-align: justify;">2. <span style="color: red;">The intentional meaning of the picture of the herdsmen (hunters?) recording their labor.</span> This seems very different, as it invites (because its intention is to allow) the viewer to "reverse engineer" the story, for amusement or profit. </div></blockquote><blockquote><div style="text-align: justify;">3. The strategically placed hand print done in red ochre. This too seems different again: although it resembles 1) in form and 2) in intension, <span style="color: #ff00fe;">it probably signals authorship</span> and in that sense has a textual as well as an interpersonal function.</div><div style="text-align: justify;"><br /></div><div style="text-align: justify;"><span style="color: #cc0000;">None of these seem to me to require the Hallidayan assumption that the viewer possesses language.</span> <span style="color: #cc0000;">All of them merely require the Vygotskyan assumption</span> that the object (or "objective") can be inferred from the remains of the object-oriented action.</div></blockquote><p style="text-align: justify;"><br /></p><p style="text-align: justify;"><b><u>Blogger Comments</u></b>:</p><p style="text-align: justify;"><span style="color: #45818e;">[1]</span> To be clear, the last two sentences in the quote (Halliday 2003: 4) were:</p><blockquote><div style="text-align: justify;">All that needs to be said in the present context is that other human semiotics are dependent on the premise that their users also have language. Language is a prerequisite; but there is no need to insist that language can mean it all.</div></blockquote><p style="text-align: justify;"><span style="color: #800180;">[2]</span> To be clear, neither of these propositions are implicit in the quote, since Halliday's 'present context' is a discussion of human 'post-infancy' semiotic systems.</p><p style="text-align: justify;"><span style="color: #6aa84f;">[3]</span> This is true, as demonstrated by Halliday's extensive work on human protolanguage.</p><p style="text-align: justify;"><span style="color: #3d85c6;">[4]</span> To be clear, the observation of deer tracks by a non-human predator is, according to Edelman's Theory of Neuronal Group Selection, simply perceptual categorisation on value. No linguistic meaning is involved. The observation of footprints by humans is the construal of experience as the first-order meaning of language.</p><p style="text-align: justify;"><span style="color: red;">[5]</span> To be clear, according to comparative mythologist Joseph Campbell, cave paintings are expressions of mythic symbolism, and mythic symbolism is the use of (lexical) metaphor to adapt consciousness to its physical and social environments, which requires that the participants had language — as does the fact that the painting is, at most, only about 13,000 years old.</p><p style="text-align: justify;"><span style="color: #ff00fe;">[6]</span> To be clear, the cave painting is to be found in <a href="https://www.thevintagenews.com/2016/09/29/cave-hands-important-example-prehistoric-art-believed-created-around-9000-13000-years-ago/" target="_blank">The Cave Of Hands</a>, in Argentina, and since, according to comparative mythologist Joseph Campbell, such sites were used for male initiation rites in hunter-gatherer societies, the great number of hand images in this cave might be taken to suggest that they identify the initiates in those rituals. Again, this demonstrates that the participants had language.</p><p style="text-align: justify;"><span style="color: #cc0000;">[7] </span>As the above demonstrates, this is the exact opposite of what is true. All three require that the human participants had language, and the dating of the cave art provides corroborating evidence.</p><div style="text-align: justify;"></div>Unknownnoreply@blogger.com4tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5665235524238431756.post-72642822692143015182023-12-04T00:00:00.166+11:002023-12-04T00:00:00.150+11:00Ed McDonald On What SFL Should Be Working Towards<p><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEhRW2oX5yWnT8P-MdQzzzq6Jw-YuPBCUKigJlYL_NucTBHHbUqby2LRg3LMORxCM5xfuUAQsCWWgXEVB_G-G3y8dfh12Fy1DpCP3xSif2GbD_zhu9BsoNNUqmkH-OvfCnOvnFKPvJeggljMkv_tp9x9bAEio-mWzLv3z6okitfK3prHyhbk0-s8M36c-5DA/s159/Ed.jpg" style="clear: left; display: inline; float: left; margin-bottom: 1em; margin-right: 1em; text-align: center;"><img border="0" data-original-height="159" data-original-width="132" height="159" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEhRW2oX5yWnT8P-MdQzzzq6Jw-YuPBCUKigJlYL_NucTBHHbUqby2LRg3LMORxCM5xfuUAQsCWWgXEVB_G-G3y8dfh12Fy1DpCP3xSif2GbD_zhu9BsoNNUqmkH-OvfCnOvnFKPvJeggljMkv_tp9x9bAEio-mWzLv3z6okitfK3prHyhbk0-s8M36c-5DA/s1600/Ed.jpg" width="132" /></a><a href="https://www.freelists.org/post/sys-func/Metafunctions,22" style="text-align: justify;" target="_blank">Edward McDonald wrote to sys-func on 27 Nov 2023, at 10:05</a><span style="text-align: justify;">:</span></p><blockquote><div style="text-align: justify;">So if I think we always need to look outside language in order to understand language … equally I think we need to look outside SFL in order to understand what we are doing within SFL.<span style="text-align: left;"> </span></div></blockquote><blockquote><div style="text-align: justify;"><span style="color: #800180;">The days of the grand all-encompassing theory,</span> <span style="color: #3d85c6;">the Theory of Everything which I note the physicists are still struggling towards</span>, <span style="color: #800180;">for me are well over,</span> even if you put aside the historical accident that it was a man deeply UNinterested in language as she languages, i.e. Old Noam, who was responsible for the best known of such theories in our current academic ecology.<span style="text-align: left;"> </span></div></blockquote><blockquote><div style="text-align: justify;"><span style="color: #ff00fe;">How can one theory be social, cognitive, pure, applied, etc etc all at the same time?</span> <span style="color: #45818e;">It seems to me that it would be far more helpful — not to mention more feasible — for (at least) two complementary theories that start out from completely different premises to somehow manage to meet in the middle, and that this is what those of us working within SFL should be working towards</span> creating a space for, a space that needs to be both practical and intellectual, both ideational and interpersonal. …</div></blockquote><p><br /></p><p><b><u>Blogger Comments</u></b>:</p><p style="text-align: justify;"><span style="color: #800180;">[1]</span> To be clear, on the assumption of 'immanence', which informs SFL, there can be no final theory, because there is no meaning beyond semiotic systems that theories can finally equal. Instead, theories are evolving semiotic systems, and the open-ended process of evolution entails that there is no final state of such a system.</p><p style="text-align: justify;"><span style="color: #3d85c6;">[2]</span> To be clear, a theory of everything in physics would unify the General Theory of Relativity (modelling gravity) with Quantum Theory (modelling the other three forces). See <a href="https://informingthoughts.blogspot.com/2023/10/quantum-gravity-viewed-through-systemic.html">Quantum Gravity Viewed Through Systemic Functional Linguistics</a>.</p><p style="text-align: justify;"><span style="color: #ff00fe;">[3]</span> To be clear, these are not components of an 'all-encompassing' theory. 'Social' and 'cognitive' are different priorities in theorising, though not mutually exclusive, whereas 'pure' and 'applied' is the distinction between theorising and applying a theory to practical purposes.</p><p style="text-align: justify;"><span style="color: #45818e;">[4]</span> To be clear, after dismissing the pursuit of a theory of everything, as exemplified by physicists, here McDonald advocates that SFL should do precisely the sort of thing that physicists are trying to do: make two complementary theories, General Relativity and Quantum Mechanics, meet in the middle in a theory of quantum gravity.</p>Unknownnoreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5665235524238431756.post-52778431141663336892023-12-03T00:00:00.099+11:002023-12-03T00:00:00.139+11:00Ed McDonald On The Interpersonal Motivation Of Model Selection<p><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEhRW2oX5yWnT8P-MdQzzzq6Jw-YuPBCUKigJlYL_NucTBHHbUqby2LRg3LMORxCM5xfuUAQsCWWgXEVB_G-G3y8dfh12Fy1DpCP3xSif2GbD_zhu9BsoNNUqmkH-OvfCnOvnFKPvJeggljMkv_tp9x9bAEio-mWzLv3z6okitfK3prHyhbk0-s8M36c-5DA/s159/Ed.jpg" style="clear: left; display: inline; float: left; margin-bottom: 1em; margin-right: 1em; text-align: center;"><img border="0" data-original-height="159" data-original-width="132" height="159" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEhRW2oX5yWnT8P-MdQzzzq6Jw-YuPBCUKigJlYL_NucTBHHbUqby2LRg3LMORxCM5xfuUAQsCWWgXEVB_G-G3y8dfh12Fy1DpCP3xSif2GbD_zhu9BsoNNUqmkH-OvfCnOvnFKPvJeggljMkv_tp9x9bAEio-mWzLv3z6okitfK3prHyhbk0-s8M36c-5DA/s1600/Ed.jpg" width="132" /></a><a href="https://www.freelists.org/post/sys-func/Metafunctions,22" style="text-align: justify;" target="_blank">Edward McDonald wrote to sys-func on 27 Nov 2023, at 10:05</a><span style="text-align: justify;">:</span></p><blockquote><div style="text-align: justify;">In this regard, members of this and other lists may have noticed that I seem to talk about my own experience a lot. But I hope they will also have noticed that I do so not to stress the particularity of my experience but rather its representativeness. I don't think my own experiences are special: I just think we're all far more affected by our own experience in the process of developing our academic thinking than we often like to admit. <span style="color: #45818e;">For example, in observing and reflecting on how people take up and adapt ideas of all kinds, including theories of language, I have become convinced that, whatever may be the purposes for which such ideas end up being used, the reasons for which they're taken up are far more likely to be interpersonal than ideational: because people you admire hold them, or because they're held by a group you want to join, or because they're being used for a practical/political/ideological project with which you're aligned.</span></div></blockquote><p><br /></p><p><b><u>Blogger Comments</u></b>:</p><p style="text-align: justify;">To be clear, this is indeed a very serious problem within the SFL community, given that SFL theory, <span style="text-align: left;">as created by Halliday, </span>is a scientific theory; see <a href="https://whatliesbeneathsfl.blogspot.com/" target="_blank">What Lies Beneath</a>.</p><p>See also, from <a href="https://the-life-of-meaning.blogspot.com/search/label/The%20Evolution%20Of%20Models" target="_blank">The Evolution Of Models</a> on <a href="https://the-life-of-meaning.blogspot.com/" target="_blank">The Life Of Meaning</a>:</p><blockquote style="border: none; margin: 0px 0px 0px 40px; padding: 0px; text-align: left;"><p style="font-feature-settings: normal; font-kerning: auto; font-optical-sizing: auto; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variant-position: normal; font-variation-settings: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0.75em 0px 0px; position: relative; text-align: justify;"><a href="https://the-life-of-meaning.blogspot.com/2012/02/controlling-variation-institutions-as.html">Controlling Variation: Institutions As Model Reproduction Nurseries</a></p><p style="font-feature-settings: normal; font-kerning: auto; font-optical-sizing: auto; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variant-position: normal; font-variation-settings: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0.75em 0px 0px; position: relative; text-align: justify;"><a href="https://the-life-of-meaning.blogspot.com/2012/02/acting-on-each-other-modulation-and.html">Acting On Each Other: Modulation And Modalisation</a></p><p style="font-feature-settings: normal; font-kerning: auto; font-optical-sizing: auto; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variant-position: normal; font-variation-settings: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0.75em 0px 0px; position: relative; text-align: justify; text-decoration-color: initial; text-decoration-style: initial; text-decoration-thickness: initial;"><a href="https://the-life-of-meaning.blogspot.com/2012/02/metafunctional-consistency-and.html">Metafunctional Consistency And Selection</a></p><p style="font-feature-settings: normal; font-kerning: auto; font-optical-sizing: auto; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variant-position: normal; font-variation-settings: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0.75em 0px 0px; position: relative; text-align: justify;"><a href="https://the-life-of-meaning.blogspot.com/2012/02/ideational-consistency-as-overtly.html">Ideational Consistency As Overtly Influencing The Probability Of Selection</a></p><p style="font-feature-settings: normal; font-kerning: auto; font-optical-sizing: auto; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variant-position: normal; font-variation-settings: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0.75em 0px 0px; position: relative; text-align: justify;"><a href="https://the-life-of-meaning.blogspot.com/2012/02/interpersonal-and-textual-consistency.html">Interpersonal And Textual Consistency As Covertly Influencing The Probability Of Selection</a></p><p style="font-feature-settings: normal; font-kerning: auto; font-optical-sizing: auto; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variant-position: normal; font-variation-settings: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0.75em 0px 0px; position: relative; text-align: justify;"><a href="https://the-life-of-meaning.blogspot.com/2012/02/social-immunological-systems.html">Social Immunological Systems</a></p><p style="font-feature-settings: normal; font-kerning: auto; font-optical-sizing: auto; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variant-position: normal; font-variation-settings: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0.75em 0px 0px; position: relative; text-align: justify;"><a href="https://the-life-of-meaning.blogspot.com/2012/02/communities-as-bodies-organised-by.html">Communities As Bodies Organised By Shared Construals, Values And Attentions</a></p><p style="font-feature-settings: normal; font-kerning: auto; font-optical-sizing: auto; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variant-position: normal; font-variation-settings: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0.75em 0px 0px; position: relative; text-align: justify;"><a href="https://the-life-of-meaning.blogspot.com/2012/02/semiosis-as-social-immunological.html">Semiosis As Social Immunological Process</a></p></blockquote><p style="font-feature-settings: normal; font-kerning: auto; font-optical-sizing: auto; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variant-position: normal; font-variation-settings: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0.75em 0px 0px; position: relative; text-align: left;"></p><div class="post-header" style="-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: white; color: black; font-family: Arial, Tahoma, Helvetica, FreeSans, sans-serif; font-size: 10.8px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-variant-ligatures: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: 1.6; margin: 0px 0px 1.5em; orphans: 2; text-align: start; text-decoration-color: initial; text-decoration-style: initial; text-decoration-thickness: initial; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px;"><div class="post-header-line-1"></div></div><div class="post-body entry-content" id="post-body-7528996246622128861" itemprop="description articleBody" style="-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: white; color: black; font-family: Arial, Tahoma, Helvetica, FreeSans, sans-serif; font-size: 13.2px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-variant-ligatures: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: 1.4; orphans: 2; position: relative; text-align: start; text-decoration-color: initial; text-decoration-style: initial; text-decoration-thickness: initial; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; width: 570px; word-spacing: 0px;"></div><p></p>Unknownnoreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5665235524238431756.post-17330721569732869822023-12-02T00:00:00.155+11:002023-12-02T00:00:00.138+11:00Ed McDonald On Metafunction, Stratification And Expression Affordances<div style="text-align: justify;"></div><blockquote><div style="text-align: justify;"></div></blockquote><div style="text-align: justify;"><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEhRW2oX5yWnT8P-MdQzzzq6Jw-YuPBCUKigJlYL_NucTBHHbUqby2LRg3LMORxCM5xfuUAQsCWWgXEVB_G-G3y8dfh12Fy1DpCP3xSif2GbD_zhu9BsoNNUqmkH-OvfCnOvnFKPvJeggljMkv_tp9x9bAEio-mWzLv3z6okitfK3prHyhbk0-s8M36c-5DA/s159/Ed.jpg" style="clear: left; float: left; margin-bottom: 1em; margin-right: 1em; text-align: justify;"><img border="0" data-original-height="159" data-original-width="132" height="159" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEhRW2oX5yWnT8P-MdQzzzq6Jw-YuPBCUKigJlYL_NucTBHHbUqby2LRg3LMORxCM5xfuUAQsCWWgXEVB_G-G3y8dfh12Fy1DpCP3xSif2GbD_zhu9BsoNNUqmkH-OvfCnOvnFKPvJeggljMkv_tp9x9bAEio-mWzLv3z6okitfK3prHyhbk0-s8M36c-5DA/s1600/Ed.jpg" width="132" /></a></div><a href="https://www.freelists.org/post/sys-func/Metafunctions,22" target="_blank">Edward McDonald wrote to sys-func on 27 Nov 2023, at 10:05</a>:</div><blockquote><div style="text-align: justify;">Just to take up the issue of <span style="color: #ff00fe;">metafunctions</span> again after some further thinking on this fundamental but <span style="color: #ff00fe;">slippery concept</span>, I think that if this notion is to be empirically defensible, or rather if the theoretical category of metafunction when translated into descriptive categories as part of a framework for a specific modality is to be empirically defensible, we need first of all to look outside language, <<without <span style="color: red;">assuming that the 3x3 stratification/metafunction model necessarily applies in the case of other semiotic systems</span>>>.</div></blockquote><blockquote><div style="text-align: justify;">My starting point here would be that <span style="color: #3d85c6;">every semiotic system depends on its affordances, which shape the kinds of meanings it most easily or typically expresses.</span> … My recent paper for LC&T, The Signifying Voice: Materiality and sociality in language and music, maps out one way of doing this, by taking two systems — language and <span style="color: #800180;">music</span> — <span style="color: #800180;">whose default expression plane is the human voice</span> and seeing how they exploit this differently.<span style="text-align: left;"> </span></div></blockquote><blockquote><div style="text-align: justify;"><span style="color: #674ea7;">I have been hugely influenced in my thinking on these two systems by a little book now out of print which has almost the same name as Theo's 1999 book on music, i.e. David Burrows' 1990 Sound, Speech, Music, which sets out from a basic phenomenological starting point to characterise the differing affordances and meanings of the two systems. I have also been deeply influenced by my own personal and professional experience as a language learner and language teacher, and likewise by my personal experience as a music learner (piano and voice) and my professional experience as a vocal accompanist/repetiteur. So when I think and particularly when I write about these issues, always in the back of my mind is the nagging thought "How is this going to be useful to performers", by which term I include learners and teachers and users of language and music.</span></div></blockquote><p> </p><p style="text-align: justify;"><b><u>Blogger Comments</u></b>:</p><p style="text-align: justify;"><span style="color: #ff00fe;">[1]</span> To be clear, the metafunctions are not slippery; they are very clearly defined. For example, Halliday & Matthiessen (1999: 7-8):</p><blockquote><div style="text-align: justify;">The ideational metafunction is concerned with construing experience — it is language as a theory of reality, as a resource for reflecting on the world. … The interpersonal metafunction is concerned with enacting interpersonal relations through language, with the adoption and assignment of speech roles, with the negotiation of attitudes, and so on — it is language in the praxis of intersubjectivity, as a resource for interacting with others. The textual metafunction is an enabling one; it is concerned with organising ideational and interpersonal meaning as discourse — as meaning that is contextualised and shared.</div></blockquote><p>For more detailed discussion, see <span style="text-align: justify;">Halliday & Matthiessen (1999: 511-32).</span></p><p style="text-align: justify;"><span style="color: red;">[2]</span> To be clear, this 3x3 model does <b><i>not</i></b> apply to semiotic systems other than language because language is unique in having a content plane that is stratified into semantics and grammar (Halliday & Matthiessen (1999: xi). This is demonstrated by the fact that it is not possible to read aloud the texts of such systems. As Halliday & Matthiessen (1999: 600) point out:</p><blockquote><div style="text-align: justify;">… through projection, we construe the experience of 'meaning' — as a layered, or stratified, phenomenon, with 'meanings' projected by sensing and <b>'wordings' projected by saying …</b></div></blockquote><p style="text-align: justify;"><span style="color: #3d85c6;">[3]</span> To be clear, this is the opposite of SFL methodology, in as much as it gives priority to view 'from below', expression, rather than the view 'from above', the meaning that is expressed.</p><p style="text-align: justify;"><span style="color: #800180;">[4]</span> To be clear, the human voice is <b><i>not</i></b> the default expression of <b>music</b>. Rather, it is the default expression of <b>song</b>, that is, of <b>language </b>that is organised on the basis of<b> music </b>variables.</p><p style="text-align: justify;"><span style="color: #674ea7;">[5]</span> To be clear, as supporting argument for McDonald's model, this is another instance of the logical fallacy known as the <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeal_to_accomplishment">Appeal to accomplishment</a> – an assertion is deemed true or false based on the accomplishments of the proposer. </p><blockquote></blockquote><div style="text-align: justify;"></div>Unknownnoreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5665235524238431756.post-5401223291433072382023-12-01T00:00:00.242+11:002023-12-01T00:00:00.142+11:00Ed McDonald On Musical Meanings As Concrete And General<div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEjza3OplZPOTCrYrEgqA5ylpOWWeWBvfva77C8HbWPmMSwUlZwY-K07v_9PEQb-Rhqno9mZBCgfGyPdNR1XUpnWev06-cQekiPg8Xn3nOIAkBlJHZRW-J8up9Lb7yz1_FSWaaIxwhFbh6ENC88vjCBASjAbhhr5kT73bCR1EoCH9tV5j216HCAfVJ23wDgR/s159/Ed.jpg" style="clear: left; float: left; margin-bottom: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><img border="0" data-original-height="159" data-original-width="132" height="159" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEjza3OplZPOTCrYrEgqA5ylpOWWeWBvfva77C8HbWPmMSwUlZwY-K07v_9PEQb-Rhqno9mZBCgfGyPdNR1XUpnWev06-cQekiPg8Xn3nOIAkBlJHZRW-J8up9Lb7yz1_FSWaaIxwhFbh6ENC88vjCBASjAbhhr5kT73bCR1EoCH9tV5j216HCAfVJ23wDgR/s1600/Ed.jpg" width="132" /></a></div><p style="text-align: justify;"><a href="https://www.freelists.org/post/sys-func/Metafunctions,17" target="_blank">Edward McDonald wrote to: sys-func on 20 Nov 2023, at 09:59</a>:</p><div style="text-align: justify;"></div><div style="text-align: justify;"><span>… This reflects my understanding of the nature of musical meaning as <i>concrete</i> but <i>general</i>. <span style="color: red;">Musical meanings are <b>concrete</b></span>, <span style="color: #45818e;">again in my opinion but informed by a wide range of research across a number of disciplines</span>, <span style="color: red;">because they express our human <b>embodiment</b>: music represents a kind of semiotic transformation of our experience of our own and other people’s bodies moving through space and time.</span></span> </div><div style="text-align: justify;"><blockquote><span><span style="color: #800180;">At the same time, musical meanings are <b>general</b>, because, to borrow the insight of one philosopher of music, music is like body language: when we observe someone’s body language, including their gait, posture, facial expression, and gaze, we can “read off” its meaning,</span><span style="color: #ff00fe;"> but only in general terms. We can tell that someone is sad, but not why; we can pick up that someone is highly agitated, but we don’t know the circumstances that gave rise to that agitation</span> – unless we use <i>language</i> to ask them about it.</span> </blockquote><blockquote><span><span style="color: #3d85c6;">So language, in contrast to music, is more <b>abstract</b>, more detached from our embodied experience,</span> but at the same time because it supplies us with a system of categories we can apply to that experience, linguistic meanings are more <b>specific</b>.</span> </blockquote><blockquote><span style="color: #674ea7;">So from this point of view, we can see that soundtrack / expression music – “songs <i>with</i> words” – and score / mood music – “songs <i>without</i> words” – take on, as you might expect, the general semiotic characteristics of the systems of language and music with which they are mostly closely identified in each case.</span></blockquote></div><div style="text-align: justify;"><span><br /></span></div><div style="text-align: justify;"><span><b><u>Blogger Comments</u></b>:</span></div><div style="text-align: justify;"><span><br /></span></div><div style="text-align: justify;"><span style="color: red;">[1]</span> To be clear, this reason for musical meanings being 'concrete' is based on a misunderstanding, since it has the (Token–Value) relation backwards. It is the movement of bodies — in playing instruments — that expresses music, not the other way around. That is, McDonald claims that musical meanings are concrete because he misconstrues them as the more concrete Token instead of the more abstract Value.</div><div style="text-align: justify;"><br /></div><div style="text-align: justify;"><span style="color: #45818e;">[2]</span> To be clear, this is another instance of the logical fallacy known as <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeal_to_accomplishment">Appeal to accomplishment</a> – an assertion is deemed true or false based on the accomplishments of the proposer.</div><div style="text-align: justify;"><br /></div><div style="text-align: justify;"><span style="color: #800180;">[3] </span>To be clear, one way to understand the difference between music and body language is through the theory of experience that has naturally evolved in English. Music is the <b>Scope</b> of the material Process of playing, whereas body language is a behavioural <b>Process</b> that 'manifests states of consciousness' (Halliday & Matthiessen 2014: 302).</div><div style="text-align: justify;"><br /></div><div style="text-align: justify;"><span style="color: #ff00fe;">[4]</span> To be clear, this reason for musical meanings being 'general' is based on a misunderstanding, since it confuses elaboration (generality) with enhancement (cause: reason).</div><div style="text-align: justify;"><br /></div><div style="text-align: justify;"><span style="color: #3d85c6;">[5]</span> To be clear, this is another instance of the logical fallacy known as <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ipse_dixit" target="_blank">ipse dixit</a>, a bare assertion, since no supporting argument has been made, and the claim that the meanings of music are concrete is based on a misunderstanding; see <span style="color: red;">[1]</span>.</div><div style="text-align: justify;"><br /></div><div style="text-align: justify;"><span style="color: #674ea7;">[6]</span> To be clear, this point has not been demonstrated; see <span style="color: red;">[1]</span> to <span style="color: #3d85c6;">[5]</span> above.</div>Unknownnoreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5665235524238431756.post-59012350098144420672023-11-30T00:00:00.252+11:002023-11-30T12:21:54.600+11:00Ed McDonald On Musical Meanings And Their "Re-expression" <p><span style="clear: left; float: left; margin-bottom: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><span><img border="0" data-original-height="159" data-original-width="132" height="159" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEglvfkc2WPERdI6nVLpDAPZ1-zBJO6nDihu1g1EF5WlDWGzCuhEEnnTtBEvOj8qD3KCo9zn6d1t3DM2fzBU1VxHga9ReB1Xvj_I_vnp6NWPWYG387OSMj6fIu6G3CFgQcHfvxWdbXQUfrW6urSuWPgh8nO_5z55HG9gi_9wQsezVqQnXdhjpDwprqaaZKP7/s1600/Ed.jpg" width="132" /></span></span><span><a href="https://www.freelists.org/post/sys-func/Metafunctions,17" target="_blank">Edward McDonald wrote to: sys-func on 20 Nov 2023, at 09:59</a>:</span></p><blockquote><div style="text-align: justify;"><span><span style="color: red;">As for language being able to "re-express" musical meanings, my reading of many reviews of performances, as well as screeds of scholarly expositions of musical styles and meanings, has left me deeply sceptical of any such possibility.</span> <span style="color: #800180;">Certainly aspects of a particular semiotic system can be "re-realised" (?) in another semiotic</span> — <span style="color: #ff00fe;">as the custom of setting words to music clearly shows</span> — but even in such cases, <span style="color: #3d85c6;">the musical tends to express meanings that language doesn't, or at least doesn't do so easily, and vice versa.</span></span></div></blockquote><div style="text-align: justify;"><span><br /></span></div><div style="text-align: justify;"><span><b><u>Blogger Comments</u></b>:</span></div><div style="text-align: justify;"><span><br /></span></div><div style="text-align: justify;"><span><span style="color: red;">[1]</span> To be clear, the fact that music does not express socially agreed meanings would suggest that music is not a social semiotic system, and the fact that the meanings of music cannot be identified — e.g. what are the meanings of <a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KXatvzWAzLU&ab_channel=LucasHermsdorff" target="_blank">Mike Oldfield's <i>Tubular Bells</i></a> and how are those meanings realised? — suggests that music is not a semiotic system at all.</span></div><div style="text-align: justify;"><span><br /></span></div><div style="text-align: justify;"><span><span>Instead, if music is viewed in terms of Halliday's linear taxonomy, it is a system of social value that is not construed symbolically. </span>Halliday & Matthiessen (1999: 507, 509):</span></div><blockquote><div style="text-align: justify;"><span>As we conceive of it, the term "semiotic" is framed within a linear taxonomy of "physical — biological — social — semiotic"; … A biological system is a physical system with the added component of "life"; it is a living physical system. In comparable terms, a social system is a biological system with the added component of "value" … . A semiotic system, then, is a social system with the added component of "meaning". Meaning can be thought of (and was thought of by Saussure) as just a kind of social value; but it is value in a significantly different sense — value that is construed symbolically. … Semiotic systems are social systems where value has been further transformed into meaning.</span></div></blockquote><div style="text-align: justify;"><span>But music differs from the systems of value in other social species — e.g. whalesong, birdsong — in that it is made by linguate beings, who can complement music with the social semiotic that is language (lyrics), represent music socio-semiotically (notation), and evolve its value potential through the social semiotic that is language (realising music theory).</span></div><div style="text-align: justify;"><span><br /></span></div><div style="text-align: justify;"><span>It is because music cannot be modelled as a social semiotic system that McDonald feels the need to redefine what constitutes a semiotic system.</span></div><div style="text-align: justify;"><br /></div><div style="text-align: justify;"><span style="color: #800180;">[2]</span> To be clear, Halliday & Matthiessen (1999: 509) claim that language is the only semiotic system into which all other semiotic systems can be "translated". McDonald could not be making these meanings with any social semiotic other than language.</div><div style="text-align: justify;"><br /></div><div style="text-align: justify;"><span style="color: #ff00fe;">[3]</span> To be clear, this is not the <b>re-expression</b> of the meanings of one semiotic system in another semiotic system. It is simply the complementation of language and music.</div><div style="text-align: justify;"><br /></div><div style="text-align: justify;"><span style="color: #3d85c6;">[4]</span> To be clear, if music really did express meanings, McDonald would be able to draw a system network of musical meanings that specified how such meanings are expressed in musical sounds.</div>Unknownnoreply@blogger.com0